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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7630913" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>What mandatory effect are you referring to?</p><p></p><p>Can you describe a concrete example, with reference to a real or conjectured system, that explains what you've got in mind.</p><p></p><p>All I'm seeing so far is a conjecture of a system that, in some circumstances, permits a GM to tell a player <em>The maiden's wink softens your heart</em>. Until you tell me more about what you have in mind, that's not an example of anything <em>forcing</em> anything beyond a description of a somewhat commonplace cause and an effect.</p><p></p><p>I don't really follow the detail of this. My take away - drawing in part on your earlier posts - is that you don't like a system which permits some mechanism to establish a PC's emotion other than player decision, <em>unless</em> that mechanism correlates to or gives expression to an in-fiction thing that bears the label <em>magic</em>.</p><p></p><p>I would therefore expect you to be fine with the 4e Deathlock Wight's ability to cause a PC to recoil in fear from its <em>horrific visage</em> (mechanically, a fear effect that does some psychic damage and a push effect) but not with the 4e Fang Titan Drake's ability to cause PC's to freeze in terror at its <em>furious roar</em> (mechanically, a fear effect that stuns, and then causes a to hit penalty as an aftereffect).</p><p></p><p>Your assertion - that failing a save vs Charm Person doesn't reflect anything about the emotional/mental response of the PC - is contentious. Here's Gygax in his DMG (p 81) about the in-fiction meaning of saving throws:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">A character under magical attack is in a stress situation, and his or her own will force reacts instinctively to protect the character by slightly altering the effects of the magical assault. This protection takes a slightly different form for each class of character. Magic-users understand spells, even on an unconscious level, and are able to slightly tamper with one so as to render it ineffective. Fighters withstand them through sheer defiance, while clerics create a small island of faith. Thieves find they are able to avoid a spell's full effects by quickness . . .</p><p></p><p>So maybe if the MU fails a save that means s/he didn't really want to render it ineffective! If the cleric fails, perhaps that means his/her faith is not as profound as s/he believed it to be . . .</p><p></p><p>Now maybe the standard 5e interpretation is that all characters do what Gygax's fighters do - ie withstand magic through sheer defiance - but that's obviously not the sole approach even within the D&D tradition.</p><p></p><p>And if we look to the source material, the notion that being mind-controlled is a sign of secret desire (or at least uncertainty) can be seen in Star Wars, the X-Men, and Lord of the Rings, just to name a few classics of the genre.</p><p></p><p>I've bolded the bit that you continue to take for granted but haven't actually articulated or defended. How does this <em>truly set RPGs apart from other games</em>?</p><p></p><p>And if this is so fundamental, why the obsession with a maiden's winking? If I envision my PC as a puissant warrior, but I keep being knocked unconscious in every fight, then my PC isn't behaving as I envision. Why is that acceptable? (NB: there are games which are able to make this aspect of the player's conception of his/her PC as central and sacrosanct as you want in respect of your PC's disposition to maidens.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7630913, member: 42582"] What mandatory effect are you referring to? Can you describe a concrete example, with reference to a real or conjectured system, that explains what you've got in mind. All I'm seeing so far is a conjecture of a system that, in some circumstances, permits a GM to tell a player [i]The maiden's wink softens your heart[/I]. Until you tell me more about what you have in mind, that's not an example of anything [I]forcing[/I] anything beyond a description of a somewhat commonplace cause and an effect. I don't really follow the detail of this. My take away - drawing in part on your earlier posts - is that you don't like a system which permits some mechanism to establish a PC's emotion other than player decision, [I]unless[/I] that mechanism correlates to or gives expression to an in-fiction thing that bears the label [I]magic[/I]. I would therefore expect you to be fine with the 4e Deathlock Wight's ability to cause a PC to recoil in fear from its [I]horrific visage[/I] (mechanically, a fear effect that does some psychic damage and a push effect) but not with the 4e Fang Titan Drake's ability to cause PC's to freeze in terror at its [I]furious roar[/I] (mechanically, a fear effect that stuns, and then causes a to hit penalty as an aftereffect). Your assertion - that failing a save vs Charm Person doesn't reflect anything about the emotional/mental response of the PC - is contentious. Here's Gygax in his DMG (p 81) about the in-fiction meaning of saving throws: [indent]A character under magical attack is in a stress situation, and his or her own will force reacts instinctively to protect the character by slightly altering the effects of the magical assault. This protection takes a slightly different form for each class of character. Magic-users understand spells, even on an unconscious level, and are able to slightly tamper with one so as to render it ineffective. Fighters withstand them through sheer defiance, while clerics create a small island of faith. Thieves find they are able to avoid a spell's full effects by quickness . . .[/indent] So maybe if the MU fails a save that means s/he didn't really want to render it ineffective! If the cleric fails, perhaps that means his/her faith is not as profound as s/he believed it to be . . . Now maybe the standard 5e interpretation is that all characters do what Gygax's fighters do - ie withstand magic through sheer defiance - but that's obviously not the sole approach even within the D&D tradition. And if we look to the source material, the notion that being mind-controlled is a sign of secret desire (or at least uncertainty) can be seen in Star Wars, the X-Men, and Lord of the Rings, just to name a few classics of the genre. I've bolded the bit that you continue to take for granted but haven't actually articulated or defended. How does this [I]truly set RPGs apart from other games[/I]? And if this is so fundamental, why the obsession with a maiden's winking? If I envision my PC as a puissant warrior, but I keep being knocked unconscious in every fight, then my PC isn't behaving as I envision. Why is that acceptable? (NB: there are games which are able to make this aspect of the player's conception of his/her PC as central and sacrosanct as you want in respect of your PC's disposition to maidens.) [/QUOTE]
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