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Players choose what their PCs do . . .
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7634660" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>This reads very much like someone without experience in other play trying to suggest that other play must be more limited because, obviously, their play isn't limited at all!</p><p></p><p>But, let's look at the outcomes that are okay in this example above. </p><p></p><p>The PCs ignore the NPC.</p><p>The PCs initiate combat with the NPC.</p><p>The PCs agree with the NPC.</p><p>The PCs do something else entirely.</p><p></p><p>All of the above are good outcomes to your example because it's that person engine deciding, and they're the best deciderers. But, I'm absolutely certain that the above is not what you meant. Instead, you have a list of unspoken additional requirements. [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]'s social contract probably shows up, in that you're expected to play within the social contract. Here, this would be that the players should accept the proposition and the roll and use the table's understanding (read GM's) of how their character acts to figure out a path that doesn't violate these things while still accomplishing something the player wants. But, this is all just a hidden set of controls on the game that you're ignoring -- it doesn't actually work how you describe, there's a huge number of unspoken limits in place. So, you argument boils down to "why speak the limits out loud." Lots of reasons. Everyone understands them, for one. Everyone can agree to them, for two. And, on the gripping hand, the GM is also held to them, something that isn't usually true in D&D.</p><p></p><p>But, that's not to say that the above is bad. It's not, else the majority of gamers are bad. It isn't the best way, though, it's just the D&D way, and, even there, you're find plenty of arguments on these very boards about social skill use against PCs. So, it's not even that cut and dried in D&D. But, other ways exist, and enable play in ways you're not familiar with. You should assume that because it's different it's lesser. That's like saying the combat rules for 5e are better than the combat rules for Basic. They are different, they result in a different game, but one isn't necessarily better than the other -- it's a personal choice.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7634660, member: 16814"] This reads very much like someone without experience in other play trying to suggest that other play must be more limited because, obviously, their play isn't limited at all! But, let's look at the outcomes that are okay in this example above. The PCs ignore the NPC. The PCs initiate combat with the NPC. The PCs agree with the NPC. The PCs do something else entirely. All of the above are good outcomes to your example because it's that person engine deciding, and they're the best deciderers. But, I'm absolutely certain that the above is not what you meant. Instead, you have a list of unspoken additional requirements. [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]'s social contract probably shows up, in that you're expected to play within the social contract. Here, this would be that the players should accept the proposition and the roll and use the table's understanding (read GM's) of how their character acts to figure out a path that doesn't violate these things while still accomplishing something the player wants. But, this is all just a hidden set of controls on the game that you're ignoring -- it doesn't actually work how you describe, there's a huge number of unspoken limits in place. So, you argument boils down to "why speak the limits out loud." Lots of reasons. Everyone understands them, for one. Everyone can agree to them, for two. And, on the gripping hand, the GM is also held to them, something that isn't usually true in D&D. But, that's not to say that the above is bad. It's not, else the majority of gamers are bad. It isn't the best way, though, it's just the D&D way, and, even there, you're find plenty of arguments on these very boards about social skill use against PCs. So, it's not even that cut and dried in D&D. But, other ways exist, and enable play in ways you're not familiar with. You should assume that because it's different it's lesser. That's like saying the combat rules for 5e are better than the combat rules for Basic. They are different, they result in a different game, but one isn't necessarily better than the other -- it's a personal choice. [/QUOTE]
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