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Players choose what their PCs do . . .
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7634676" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>You're imagining bad play, and so it is bad. Go back to the example I presented about the knight and the maiden. All the results of that were from the knight attempting to do things -- ie, player initiated. All of the outcomes were due to what the player explicitly had up as stakes -- ie, player initiated. These are in game where the GM's authority is much more limited and the players have greater authorities -- but they tend to move the boundaries around. If you're imagining D&D where the GM gets to declare player actions as well as having the authority over everything else, then, yes, this is a problem and should be avoided -- we agree wholeheartedly.</p><p></p><p>But, outside of that kind of D&D framework, things work. Hence the reason I keep bringing up the D&D framework and people not looking outside of it as being an impediment to understanding. </p><p></p><p>But, to go back to choice not being a challenge -- you can't lose a choice. You've not staked anything prior to the choice (at least in the examples given). You're just choosing between options. And, as I noted above, there's a heavy sense of these options being GM imposed anyway. I mean, your chastity or Excalibur example -- who set those stakes? Did the player decide that they'd risk their chastity to get the sword or was it, as presented, the GM saying that you can have the sword if your break your chastity? If it's anything at all like the latter, isn't this just the GM using force to set stakes for you?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7634676, member: 16814"] You're imagining bad play, and so it is bad. Go back to the example I presented about the knight and the maiden. All the results of that were from the knight attempting to do things -- ie, player initiated. All of the outcomes were due to what the player explicitly had up as stakes -- ie, player initiated. These are in game where the GM's authority is much more limited and the players have greater authorities -- but they tend to move the boundaries around. If you're imagining D&D where the GM gets to declare player actions as well as having the authority over everything else, then, yes, this is a problem and should be avoided -- we agree wholeheartedly. But, outside of that kind of D&D framework, things work. Hence the reason I keep bringing up the D&D framework and people not looking outside of it as being an impediment to understanding. But, to go back to choice not being a challenge -- you can't lose a choice. You've not staked anything prior to the choice (at least in the examples given). You're just choosing between options. And, as I noted above, there's a heavy sense of these options being GM imposed anyway. I mean, your chastity or Excalibur example -- who set those stakes? Did the player decide that they'd risk their chastity to get the sword or was it, as presented, the GM saying that you can have the sword if your break your chastity? If it's anything at all like the latter, isn't this just the GM using force to set stakes for you? [/QUOTE]
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