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Players choose what their PCs do . . .
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7634688" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Duel of Wits from Burning Wheel has been mentioned.</p><p></p><p>It's an interesting example, because it permits PCs to be persuaded (by other PCs, or by NPCs) but doesn't change their underlying motivations/orientations.</p><p></p><p>In the context of (say) a maiden trying to persuade a PC to help her, it can certainly permit that. And if the maiden is charming or flirty that can factor into her checks (eg FoRK Seduction and/or Soothing Platitudes into Persuasion). The PC may not have his/her heart fully melted, but can find himself unable to deny the maiden's demands.</p><p></p><p>Personally, based on my own play experience, I see this as different from (say) MHRP or (if I understood it right) the Exalted mechanic that was described upthread - because the fundamental convictions of the PC can't be changed in this way.</p><p></p><p>I see it as much closer to my paladin example - just as the paladin in my RM game learned (didn't choose) that he was a killer, and had to somehow deal with this, so in BW the PC can learn that he is someone who will aid a winking maiden, and has to somehow integrate this into his self-conception. If this happens enough times the PC can change pretty significantly.</p><p></p><p>To me, what seems fundamental in these sorts of cases is that <em>the PC does or becomes something that the player didn't get to choose</em>, and that something matters to the PC's self-conception. But nor is it just GM force. It's the mechanics at work that produce these results, and hence force the crisis upon the PC.</p><p></p><p><em>Having to choose between chastity and Excalibur</em>, or <em>having to choose whether to be persuaded by the GM's NPC</em>, does not have this structure at all. It's a choice, and nothing more. The PC has not unexpectedly done or become something different or troubling.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7634688, member: 42582"] Duel of Wits from Burning Wheel has been mentioned. It's an interesting example, because it permits PCs to be persuaded (by other PCs, or by NPCs) but doesn't change their underlying motivations/orientations. In the context of (say) a maiden trying to persuade a PC to help her, it can certainly permit that. And if the maiden is charming or flirty that can factor into her checks (eg FoRK Seduction and/or Soothing Platitudes into Persuasion). The PC may not have his/her heart fully melted, but can find himself unable to deny the maiden's demands. Personally, based on my own play experience, I see this as different from (say) MHRP or (if I understood it right) the Exalted mechanic that was described upthread - because the fundamental convictions of the PC can't be changed in this way. I see it as much closer to my paladin example - just as the paladin in my RM game learned (didn't choose) that he was a killer, and had to somehow deal with this, so in BW the PC can learn that he is someone who will aid a winking maiden, and has to somehow integrate this into his self-conception. If this happens enough times the PC can change pretty significantly. To me, what seems fundamental in these sorts of cases is that [I]the PC does or becomes something that the player didn't get to choose[/I], and that something matters to the PC's self-conception. But nor is it just GM force. It's the mechanics at work that produce these results, and hence force the crisis upon the PC. [I]Having to choose between chastity and Excalibur[/I], or [I]having to choose whether to be persuaded by the GM's NPC[/I], does not have this structure at all. It's a choice, and nothing more. The PC has not unexpectedly done or become something different or troubling. [/QUOTE]
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