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Players choose what their PCs do . . .
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7636551" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>The quote tags in the post I'm replying to here are a bit of a hot mess, so if some quoted bits don't quite make sense it ain't my doing. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p>Aye, that I was.</p><p></p><p>Because it's a great big setting out there with lots of stuff in it?</p><p></p><p>Why wouldn't she? And sometimes she'll be right, and sometimes she won't; and the same can be said for the players.</p><p></p><p>The players control the fiction by what they have their characters (try to) do.</p><p></p><p>For example, if on reaching the Duke's study the players/PCs decide not to search it at all but instead try to get to his bedroom (thinking the real incriminating stuff might be there) then off the fiction goes to the Duke's bedroom; and if the players/PCs then decide to charm-kidnap his valet (and succeed in doing so) and leave the castle with him then off the fiction goes to somewhere else.</p><p></p><p>If the players (and thus PCs) are dead set on finding financial papers it's not for the GM to proactively give them other ideas, is it? It's the GM's place to respond to what the players have their PCs (try to) do...and sometimes that response might open their eyes to some other alternatives that they've stumbled across without really intending to.</p><p></p><p>Of course they can, and it's then the GM's duty to respond accordingly.</p><p></p><p>Isn't a GM allowed to have an occasional cool idea and throw it in? Or supply a twist?</p><p></p><p>Well, I suppose another way a GM might have handled a success roll would be to have the PCs find some financial papers in the desk that weren't incriminating at all. The players seem to have two goals at once - find financial papers and incriminate the Duke - and while it might be preferable to somehow break those down into separate declarations that's not what happened here; so the GM gets to make a call: which goal is more relevant - the papers, or the incrimination?</p><p></p><p>On the basis that this "different intent" was stated as part of the action declaration in the first place.</p><p></p><p>I guess it depends what you consider to be a success. In this case we have two goals at once:</p><p></p><p>A - find some financial papers</p><p>B - incriminate the Duke</p><p></p><p>B is a broader and, probably, more important goal than A; A is merely a means to achieving B. Given that both goals were stated in the action, there's four possible results:</p><p></p><p>1. A - Yes, B - Yes</p><p>2. A - No, B - Yes</p><p>3. A - Yes, B - No</p><p>4. A - No, B - No</p><p></p><p>No denying that 1 is a success and 4's a failure; but what are 2 and 3? As B is the more important goal I'd say 2 is a success and 3 is ultimately a failure as even though some papers were found they didn't help in achieving goal B.</p><p></p><p>For the same reason, if the roll came up as a failure then 2 is off the table while 3 might be within a GM's purview.</p><p></p><p>And what about unintended and-or unexpected results? Are these not allowed? On any of the above results is the GM allowed to throw in "Oh, and by the way while searching the desk you also stumbled on some love letters to the Duke from Lady Alisanne; and last you checked Alisanne ain't the Duchess. The letters indicate a lengthy (and lusty!) relationship."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7636551, member: 29398"] The quote tags in the post I'm replying to here are a bit of a hot mess, so if some quoted bits don't quite make sense it ain't my doing. :) Aye, that I was. Because it's a great big setting out there with lots of stuff in it? Why wouldn't she? And sometimes she'll be right, and sometimes she won't; and the same can be said for the players. The players control the fiction by what they have their characters (try to) do. For example, if on reaching the Duke's study the players/PCs decide not to search it at all but instead try to get to his bedroom (thinking the real incriminating stuff might be there) then off the fiction goes to the Duke's bedroom; and if the players/PCs then decide to charm-kidnap his valet (and succeed in doing so) and leave the castle with him then off the fiction goes to somewhere else. If the players (and thus PCs) are dead set on finding financial papers it's not for the GM to proactively give them other ideas, is it? It's the GM's place to respond to what the players have their PCs (try to) do...and sometimes that response might open their eyes to some other alternatives that they've stumbled across without really intending to. Of course they can, and it's then the GM's duty to respond accordingly. Isn't a GM allowed to have an occasional cool idea and throw it in? Or supply a twist? Well, I suppose another way a GM might have handled a success roll would be to have the PCs find some financial papers in the desk that weren't incriminating at all. The players seem to have two goals at once - find financial papers and incriminate the Duke - and while it might be preferable to somehow break those down into separate declarations that's not what happened here; so the GM gets to make a call: which goal is more relevant - the papers, or the incrimination? On the basis that this "different intent" was stated as part of the action declaration in the first place. I guess it depends what you consider to be a success. In this case we have two goals at once: A - find some financial papers B - incriminate the Duke B is a broader and, probably, more important goal than A; A is merely a means to achieving B. Given that both goals were stated in the action, there's four possible results: 1. A - Yes, B - Yes 2. A - No, B - Yes 3. A - Yes, B - No 4. A - No, B - No No denying that 1 is a success and 4's a failure; but what are 2 and 3? As B is the more important goal I'd say 2 is a success and 3 is ultimately a failure as even though some papers were found they didn't help in achieving goal B. For the same reason, if the roll came up as a failure then 2 is off the table while 3 might be within a GM's purview. And what about unintended and-or unexpected results? Are these not allowed? On any of the above results is the GM allowed to throw in "Oh, and by the way while searching the desk you also stumbled on some love letters to the Duke from Lady Alisanne; and last you checked Alisanne ain't the Duchess. The letters indicate a lengthy (and lusty!) relationship." [/QUOTE]
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