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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7637606" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>An action declaration is a proposal that the fiction should include a certain content. For instance, <em>I [try and] climb the wall</em> is a proposal as to the content of the shared fiction, namely, that it includes the PC climbing the wall.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know what <em>playing their character</em> means here other than some improv acting. If the GM is deciding everything that happens, what else are the players contributing to the game?</p><p></p><p>I've played games of D&D in which the players did more than improv acting, but that's because, in those games, the GM didn't decide everything that happens. This is why I regard it as controversial to assert that, in D&D, <em>the GM always decides</em>. Because that doesn't describe all my D&D experiences.</p><p></p><p>I didn't say it can never be a success. I said that it's not per se a success ie it can be a failure (which I took you to deny).</p><p></p><p>If the intent is <em>to find some treasure</em>, then a ruby may well be a success. But the action declaration you described was <em>to find 1000 gp</em>. If you meant <em>an intent to find 1000 gp worth of treasure</em> then of course finding the ruby would be a success.</p><p></p><p>This is very similar to [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] upthread, who seemed to treat an intent <em>to find incriminating financial documents</em> as equivalent to an intent <em>to find something that might be incrminating</em>. If you're meaning the more general intent then I don't quite get why you're presenting your examples by reference to the narrower more specific intent.</p><p></p><p>No one asserts that it does. The challenge is putting the consequence of the die roll on the line. </p><p></p><p>This claim hasn't been demonstrated.</p><p></p><p>For instance, how in AD&D, or 5e D&D, can a player put his/her PC's connection with a friend or a family member on the line, without this just being an invitation for the GM to make a decision about what that NPC does?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me that different systems produce different experiences, or are asserting that 5e D&D prodocuse the same experiences as any other system. I'm not sure that both claims can be true.</p><p></p><p>I don't play 5e D&D, so I can't tell you what its pros are in relation to roleplaying.</p><p></p><p>Classic D&D (inlcuding Moldvay Basic and Gygax's AD&D) is quite a good system if you want to play a dungeon crawl: it has a range of systems to support that including wandering monster systems, mapping conventions, rules for searching in dungeons, systems for retainer/hireling loyalty, etc.</p><p></p><p>The only other systems I personally know that aim to support this sort of play are T&T and Torchbearer - I've played a tiny bit of the former and none of the latter. But [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] knows Torchbearer.</p><p></p><p>4e D&D is a completely different game from classic D&D - it shares some subsystems but almost none of the broader framework of play. It's a game of epic, often gonzo, fantasy/cosmological adventure. It doesn't have the dungeon-crawling subsystems of classic D&D, but it does have systems to help it do what it does, including the skill challenge mechanic.</p><p></p><p>Someone else will have to post about 5e D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7637606, member: 42582"] An action declaration is a proposal that the fiction should include a certain content. For instance, [I]I [try and] climb the wall[/I] is a proposal as to the content of the shared fiction, namely, that it includes the PC climbing the wall. I don't know what [I]playing their character[/I] means here other than some improv acting. If the GM is deciding everything that happens, what else are the players contributing to the game? I've played games of D&D in which the players did more than improv acting, but that's because, in those games, the GM didn't decide everything that happens. This is why I regard it as controversial to assert that, in D&D, [I]the GM always decides[/I]. Because that doesn't describe all my D&D experiences. I didn't say it can never be a success. I said that it's not per se a success ie it can be a failure (which I took you to deny). If the intent is [I]to find some treasure[/I], then a ruby may well be a success. But the action declaration you described was [I]to find 1000 gp[/I]. If you meant [I]an intent to find 1000 gp worth of treasure[/I] then of course finding the ruby would be a success. This is very similar to [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] upthread, who seemed to treat an intent [I]to find incriminating financial documents[/I] as equivalent to an intent [I]to find something that might be incrminating[/I]. If you're meaning the more general intent then I don't quite get why you're presenting your examples by reference to the narrower more specific intent. No one asserts that it does. The challenge is putting the consequence of the die roll on the line. This claim hasn't been demonstrated. For instance, how in AD&D, or 5e D&D, can a player put his/her PC's connection with a friend or a family member on the line, without this just being an invitation for the GM to make a decision about what that NPC does? I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me that different systems produce different experiences, or are asserting that 5e D&D prodocuse the same experiences as any other system. I'm not sure that both claims can be true. I don't play 5e D&D, so I can't tell you what its pros are in relation to roleplaying. Classic D&D (inlcuding Moldvay Basic and Gygax's AD&D) is quite a good system if you want to play a dungeon crawl: it has a range of systems to support that including wandering monster systems, mapping conventions, rules for searching in dungeons, systems for retainer/hireling loyalty, etc. The only other systems I personally know that aim to support this sort of play are T&T and Torchbearer - I've played a tiny bit of the former and none of the latter. But [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] knows Torchbearer. 4e D&D is a completely different game from classic D&D - it shares some subsystems but almost none of the broader framework of play. It's a game of epic, often gonzo, fantasy/cosmological adventure. It doesn't have the dungeon-crawling subsystems of classic D&D, but it does have systems to help it do what it does, including the skill challenge mechanic. Someone else will have to post about 5e D&D. [/QUOTE]
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