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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7639263" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In 4e a minion is also killed by any damage that doesn't require an attack roll to inflcit - eg zone damage. Having GMed a long campaign with a zone-heavy sorcerer I've seen the anti-minion effect of such zones. In the fiction, this is a sign of the power of the fire (or whatever it is) that this sorcerer conjures up.</p><p></p><p>As far as AD&D and 5e save-for-half is concerned, it's always struck me as odd that most ordinary beings (1 HD or less including kobolds, goblins, men-at-arms etc) are incapable of diving for cover and surviving a fireball or similar (because the half damage is still going to be fatal for most of them on most occasions). </p><p></p><p>As you're presenting it, minions are an approximiation framework: set a higher to-hit number (ie levelled-up AC) and only track hits that reach that number - with a single hit being enought (ie 1 hp).</p><p></p><p>I've personally never thought of them in quite that way, perhaps because (i) I've never used called-shot rules in AD&D, and (ii) I don't think of their being a "true" (standard) AC and hp value to which the minion resolution approximates. But I fully agree that they are an alternative resolution system. They take full advantage of the various mathematical components of the D&D system (AC, hp, damage, etc) and play with them to produce the right fiction for the right tier of PC.</p><p></p><p>My own take on 4e, given the way that the PHB and DMG present the <em>tiers of play</em>, is that while all the numbers are purely resolution devices, the tiers are something that is part of the fiction. Perhaps not strictly literally, but in the sense that - in the fiction - it is evident when a being is capable of doing the sorts of things described as apt for each of the tiers. ANd then on the GM side we use the various resolution devices (minions, solos, swarms, etc) to express our creatures and NPCs in ways that suit the fiction of the tiers.</p><p></p><p>I've always thought that this is one of the reasons [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has described 4e D&D as "fiction first" rather than "mechanics first". It contrast very markedly in this respect with systems like RQ or RM which fall under the Forge lable <em>purist-for-system simulationism</em> and which lead with the mechanical framework and read all the fiction from that. 4e is virtually the opposite of purist-for-system.</p><p></p><p>I also want to tie this back to one of [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s recent posts. Campbell referred to the role of the system being to facilitate and even force a certain sort of authenticity, antagonism and playing to find out. He flagged GM mediation as possible burden on this. 4e D&D minion mechanics are one form of GM mediation; they are one example of how 4e sometimes requires the GM to already form a view about what the fiction requires in terms of challenge - eg should this creature be presented as a standard or a minion? what should the complexity of this skill challenge be? This isn't a fom of railroading - it doesn't impose GM pre-determined outcomes onto the fiction - but I think it is possibly a reduction in the sort of "pressure to authenticity" that Campbell has described.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7639263, member: 42582"] In 4e a minion is also killed by any damage that doesn't require an attack roll to inflcit - eg zone damage. Having GMed a long campaign with a zone-heavy sorcerer I've seen the anti-minion effect of such zones. In the fiction, this is a sign of the power of the fire (or whatever it is) that this sorcerer conjures up. As far as AD&D and 5e save-for-half is concerned, it's always struck me as odd that most ordinary beings (1 HD or less including kobolds, goblins, men-at-arms etc) are incapable of diving for cover and surviving a fireball or similar (because the half damage is still going to be fatal for most of them on most occasions). As you're presenting it, minions are an approximiation framework: set a higher to-hit number (ie levelled-up AC) and only track hits that reach that number - with a single hit being enought (ie 1 hp). I've personally never thought of them in quite that way, perhaps because (i) I've never used called-shot rules in AD&D, and (ii) I don't think of their being a "true" (standard) AC and hp value to which the minion resolution approximates. But I fully agree that they are an alternative resolution system. They take full advantage of the various mathematical components of the D&D system (AC, hp, damage, etc) and play with them to produce the right fiction for the right tier of PC. My own take on 4e, given the way that the PHB and DMG present the [I]tiers of play[/I], is that while all the numbers are purely resolution devices, the tiers are something that is part of the fiction. Perhaps not strictly literally, but in the sense that - in the fiction - it is evident when a being is capable of doing the sorts of things described as apt for each of the tiers. ANd then on the GM side we use the various resolution devices (minions, solos, swarms, etc) to express our creatures and NPCs in ways that suit the fiction of the tiers. I've always thought that this is one of the reasons [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has described 4e D&D as "fiction first" rather than "mechanics first". It contrast very markedly in this respect with systems like RQ or RM which fall under the Forge lable [I]purist-for-system simulationism[/I] and which lead with the mechanical framework and read all the fiction from that. 4e is virtually the opposite of purist-for-system. I also want to tie this back to one of [MENTION=16586]Campbell[/MENTION]'s recent posts. Campbell referred to the role of the system being to facilitate and even force a certain sort of authenticity, antagonism and playing to find out. He flagged GM mediation as possible burden on this. 4e D&D minion mechanics are one form of GM mediation; they are one example of how 4e sometimes requires the GM to already form a view about what the fiction requires in terms of challenge - eg should this creature be presented as a standard or a minion? what should the complexity of this skill challenge be? This isn't a fom of railroading - it doesn't impose GM pre-determined outcomes onto the fiction - but I think it is possibly a reduction in the sort of "pressure to authenticity" that Campbell has described. [/QUOTE]
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