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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7639297" data-attributes="member: 996">Yeah, I'm aware. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />  I'm also fine with minions 'dying' because they flee, surrender, collapse in panic - or can't bring themselves to cross a wall of flame, say.  The mechanics are that the minion who takes any damage is done, exactly how can fit the narrative however.  /Somethig/, if not everything, about hit points and saving throws is going to have to strike you odd at /some/ point.  <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />  They really do get pretty whack.  Making all attacks use attack rolls is not just a simplification, it makes you stop and think, 'hey, why is this so messed up, anyway, let's fix it.'  Yep, with the minor proviso that their an approximation framework /of an approximation framework/.  It might feel 'right,' though, to consider any given creature's 'real stats' it's "Standard" stats... BTW, that'd mean that PC's are actually all about 4 levels higher than their class level - since PC's are generally about equivalent to Elites.  Exactly:  Both regular old monster stats & taking averages for loads of 'em and sliding a 4e monster from Solo through Elite & Standard to Minion if not Swarm are just 'approximation frameworks' for the mechanics to model a desired challenge in the narrative.And, really, in fiction, the Heroes' relationship with monsters they slay can be quite inconsistent.  When you first face a new monster, it's often a huge threat, seems nearly invulnerable, tosses everyone around.  Then you figure out how to kill it, and barely defeat one... … by the end of the 'season' or the 4th book or whatever, even minor characters are mowing their way through the same monsters.  It was a very evident phenomenon on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for an amusing, and occasionally extreme instance.There's certainly a clear intent that the nature/content/scope of the fiction will change with each Tier.  Some DMs 'get' that and do a great job.  Others choke and deliver the same kinds of scenarios at every Tier.  It's one of the harder things to do as a 4e DM - a job that's otherwise awfully easy, IMHO.It's funny, because in systems like 4e and Hero, mechanics /really matter/ in a hard-numbers, hard-rules kind of way, and fiction can be customized quite a bit.  But, that actually facilitates starting with what you want  and finding things with mechanics that approximate something that evokes that, once you file off the serial numbers and reskin it. I can see that.  I can also see shifting the same alternate resolution frameworks to the players' side of the court, if you wanted to.  I posted something like that not so very long ago......There it is:<a href="https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468865-Throwing-ideas-seeing-what-sticks-(and-what-stinks)&p=7615703&viewfull=1#post7615703">https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468865-Throwing-ideas-seeing-what-sticks-(and-what-stinks)&p=7615703&viewfull=1#post7615703</a></blockquote>

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