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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7639297" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Yeah, I'm aware. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> I'm also fine with minions 'dying' because they flee, surrender, collapse in panic - or can't bring themselves to cross a wall of flame, say. The mechanics are that the minion who takes any damage is done, exactly how can fit the narrative however. </p><p></p><p></p><p> /Somethig/, if not everything, about hit points and saving throws is going to have to strike you odd at /some/ point. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> They really do get pretty whack. Making all attacks use attack rolls is not just a simplification, it makes you stop and think, 'hey, why is this so messed up, anyway, let's fix it.' </p><p></p><p>Yep, with the minor proviso that their an approximation framework /of an approximation framework/. It might feel 'right,' though, to consider any given creature's 'real stats' it's "Standard" stats... BTW, that'd mean that PC's are actually all about 4 levels higher than their class level - since PC's are generally about equivalent to Elites. </p><p></p><p>Exactly: Both regular old monster stats & taking averages for loads of 'em and sliding a 4e monster from Solo through Elite & Standard to Minion if not Swarm are just 'approximation frameworks' for the mechanics to model a desired challenge in the narrative.</p><p></p><p>And, really, in fiction, the Heroes' relationship with monsters they slay can be quite inconsistent. When you first face a new monster, it's often a huge threat, seems nearly invulnerable, tosses everyone around. Then you figure out how to kill it, and barely defeat one... </p><p></p><p>… by the end of the 'season' or the 4th book or whatever, even minor characters are mowing their way through the same monsters. </p><p></p><p>It was a very evident phenomenon on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for an amusing, and occasionally extreme instance.</p><p></p><p>There's certainly a clear intent that the nature/content/scope of the fiction will change with each Tier. Some DMs 'get' that and do a great job. Others choke and deliver the same kinds of scenarios at every Tier. It's one of the harder things to do as a 4e DM - a job that's otherwise awfully easy, IMHO.</p><p></p><p> It's funny, because in systems like 4e and Hero, mechanics /really matter/ in a hard-numbers, hard-rules kind of way, and fiction can be customized quite a bit. But, that actually facilitates starting with what you want and finding things with mechanics that approximate something that evokes that, once you file off the serial numbers and reskin it. </p><p></p><p>I can see that. I can also see shifting the same alternate resolution frameworks to the players' side of the court, if you wanted to. </p><p></p><p>I posted something like that not so very long ago...</p><p></p><p></p><p>...There it is:</p><p><a href="https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468865-Throwing-ideas-seeing-what-sticks-(and-what-stinks)&p=7615703&viewfull=1#post7615703" target="_blank">https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468865-Throwing-ideas-seeing-what-sticks-(and-what-stinks)&p=7615703&viewfull=1#post7615703</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7639297, member: 996"] Yeah, I'm aware. ;) I'm also fine with minions 'dying' because they flee, surrender, collapse in panic - or can't bring themselves to cross a wall of flame, say. The mechanics are that the minion who takes any damage is done, exactly how can fit the narrative however. /Somethig/, if not everything, about hit points and saving throws is going to have to strike you odd at /some/ point. ;) They really do get pretty whack. Making all attacks use attack rolls is not just a simplification, it makes you stop and think, 'hey, why is this so messed up, anyway, let's fix it.' Yep, with the minor proviso that their an approximation framework /of an approximation framework/. It might feel 'right,' though, to consider any given creature's 'real stats' it's "Standard" stats... BTW, that'd mean that PC's are actually all about 4 levels higher than their class level - since PC's are generally about equivalent to Elites. Exactly: Both regular old monster stats & taking averages for loads of 'em and sliding a 4e monster from Solo through Elite & Standard to Minion if not Swarm are just 'approximation frameworks' for the mechanics to model a desired challenge in the narrative. And, really, in fiction, the Heroes' relationship with monsters they slay can be quite inconsistent. When you first face a new monster, it's often a huge threat, seems nearly invulnerable, tosses everyone around. Then you figure out how to kill it, and barely defeat one... … by the end of the 'season' or the 4th book or whatever, even minor characters are mowing their way through the same monsters. It was a very evident phenomenon on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for an amusing, and occasionally extreme instance. There's certainly a clear intent that the nature/content/scope of the fiction will change with each Tier. Some DMs 'get' that and do a great job. Others choke and deliver the same kinds of scenarios at every Tier. It's one of the harder things to do as a 4e DM - a job that's otherwise awfully easy, IMHO. It's funny, because in systems like 4e and Hero, mechanics /really matter/ in a hard-numbers, hard-rules kind of way, and fiction can be customized quite a bit. But, that actually facilitates starting with what you want and finding things with mechanics that approximate something that evokes that, once you file off the serial numbers and reskin it. I can see that. I can also see shifting the same alternate resolution frameworks to the players' side of the court, if you wanted to. I posted something like that not so very long ago... ...There it is: [url]https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468865-Throwing-ideas-seeing-what-sticks-(and-what-stinks)&p=7615703&viewfull=1#post7615703[/url] [/QUOTE]
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