Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Players choose what their PCs do . . .
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7640913" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>No it doesn't, but that still doesn't excuse the underlying mechanical disconnects.</p><p></p><p>Though the numbers and game stats are not the fiction in themselves, those numbers exist to reflect and define the fiction as best they can. </p><p></p><p>Absolutely agreed. But:</p><p></p><p>1. Though you can stat out a bugbear any old way you like, once you've statted it out <strong>those stats are locked in</strong> unless at a later point in the fiction something materially changes about that bugbear. Thus, if you stat out Joe the Bugbear as an unusually smart but clumsy bugbear with 35 hit points and an AC penalty due to poor dex for when the 3rd-level party meets him, all of that should and must remain true when the party meets him again at 15th level. The party's changed - higher level, better equipment, more skills and abilities, etc. - but ol' Joe hasn't. He hasn't lost all his hit points, he hasn't put on better armour (or any armour!), he hasn't gained any skills or abilities - and to properly and accurately reflect this, none of his numbers should change from what they were.</p><p></p><p>2. And why should Joe's numbers be locked in once generated? To allow him to consistently interact with the rest of the fictional world, and it with him, off-camera; and to thus allow the players to be correct in an assumption* that the parts of the game world they don't see function and interact in a manner consistent with what they do see. Which flips around to say that when you stat out Bill the Bugbear to have only 1 hit point - which you can certainly do, no argument there - it means Bill has only ever had 1 hit point** so how the hell did he survive growing up in bugbear society?</p><p></p><p>I don't like using examples like this but I'll make an exception here: in a typical fantasy novel, is there ever a reason given to <strong>not</strong> assume things in that world work the same off-camera than they do on-camera? No. And this serves to allow readers to reasonably fill in how things happened on returning later to a changed scene e.g. the Hobbits return to the Shire to find Saruman has taken it over - we know how the Shire works and we know Saruman, so it's easy to fill in the gaps. It also serves to give a sense of there being a complete world (or universe) out there beyond just what the words on the page speak of.</p><p></p><p>In an RPG where the numbers are supposed to reflect the fiction of what they represent, changing the numbers tells me there's been a change in the fiction...but here, Joe's numbers have changed yet Joe himself has not; and bang - there's the disconnect. And changing Joe's numbers to reflect changes to something else in the fiction (in this case, the PCs) is also wrong, in that Joe's numbers are intended first and foremost to reflect what Joe is - they're intrinsic to (and thus tied to) him.</p><p></p><p>* - in a standard non-dreamworld medieval game setting, proving this assumption incorrect makes the setting - and the game - worthless.</p><p>** - you could, of course, say that Bill normally has more hit points but when the party meets him he's already been wounded such that he only has one left; but that would a) not explain Bill's charge into melee and b) start looking really contrived after a series of encounters where half the opponents have already been beaten within an inch of their lives.</p><p></p><p>So if the fiction's the same anyway, why invalidate the setting behind it by messing with numbers that don't need to be messed with? What purpose does it serve other than to tell the players that the setting is made of sand and thus they can't rely on things within it being and remaining consistent?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7640913, member: 29398"] No it doesn't, but that still doesn't excuse the underlying mechanical disconnects. Though the numbers and game stats are not the fiction in themselves, those numbers exist to reflect and define the fiction as best they can. Absolutely agreed. But: 1. Though you can stat out a bugbear any old way you like, once you've statted it out [B]those stats are locked in[/B] unless at a later point in the fiction something materially changes about that bugbear. Thus, if you stat out Joe the Bugbear as an unusually smart but clumsy bugbear with 35 hit points and an AC penalty due to poor dex for when the 3rd-level party meets him, all of that should and must remain true when the party meets him again at 15th level. The party's changed - higher level, better equipment, more skills and abilities, etc. - but ol' Joe hasn't. He hasn't lost all his hit points, he hasn't put on better armour (or any armour!), he hasn't gained any skills or abilities - and to properly and accurately reflect this, none of his numbers should change from what they were. 2. And why should Joe's numbers be locked in once generated? To allow him to consistently interact with the rest of the fictional world, and it with him, off-camera; and to thus allow the players to be correct in an assumption* that the parts of the game world they don't see function and interact in a manner consistent with what they do see. Which flips around to say that when you stat out Bill the Bugbear to have only 1 hit point - which you can certainly do, no argument there - it means Bill has only ever had 1 hit point** so how the hell did he survive growing up in bugbear society? I don't like using examples like this but I'll make an exception here: in a typical fantasy novel, is there ever a reason given to [B]not[/B] assume things in that world work the same off-camera than they do on-camera? No. And this serves to allow readers to reasonably fill in how things happened on returning later to a changed scene e.g. the Hobbits return to the Shire to find Saruman has taken it over - we know how the Shire works and we know Saruman, so it's easy to fill in the gaps. It also serves to give a sense of there being a complete world (or universe) out there beyond just what the words on the page speak of. In an RPG where the numbers are supposed to reflect the fiction of what they represent, changing the numbers tells me there's been a change in the fiction...but here, Joe's numbers have changed yet Joe himself has not; and bang - there's the disconnect. And changing Joe's numbers to reflect changes to something else in the fiction (in this case, the PCs) is also wrong, in that Joe's numbers are intended first and foremost to reflect what Joe is - they're intrinsic to (and thus tied to) him. * - in a standard non-dreamworld medieval game setting, proving this assumption incorrect makes the setting - and the game - worthless. ** - you could, of course, say that Bill normally has more hit points but when the party meets him he's already been wounded such that he only has one left; but that would a) not explain Bill's charge into melee and b) start looking really contrived after a series of encounters where half the opponents have already been beaten within an inch of their lives. So if the fiction's the same anyway, why invalidate the setting behind it by messing with numbers that don't need to be messed with? What purpose does it serve other than to tell the players that the setting is made of sand and thus they can't rely on things within it being and remaining consistent? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Players choose what their PCs do . . .
Top