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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7642744" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>An interesting ultimatum, and one I'll answer, but, in return, I'm going to offer a comparable one, below. Good luck with it.</p><p></p><p>So, the resolution system, is not the model of the antagonist side of the conflict, alone. Rather, the broader system models the PCs and their story, including their antagonists, /as such/. In fiction - and, I mean fiction you could actually hope to publish, even if only in a 30s pulp or 19th century penny dreadful - heroes do not stolidly fight the same foes in the same level of detail over and over again. Rather, new or terrible threats get the detailed treatment, and familiar or trivial ones are finished quickly or even glossed over - because fiction is not meant to be boring.</p><p></p><p>The basic d20 dice mechanic can't handle a spread of more than +/-5 without becoming unwieldy, and at +/-10, it becomes worthless. So you're either limited to modeling a narrow range of competence (sweet spot) with the game breaking down outside that, modeling improvement primarily off the d20 with geometrically exploding hp/damage (high level monsters with thousands of hps), or normalizing the range between heroes and adversaries (treadmill).</p><p></p><p>None are entirely satisfying, but each can be made to work.</p><p></p><p>So, in the treadmill version, you can't have adversaries with a nominal level outside the workable range of the d20 - less than +/-5 - so, instead, other factors have to vary when you would otherwise cross that threshold. That's what secondary roles are in 4e. A solo is an adversary that would be consistently beaten at even odds were you 9 levels higher, instead, at level, it's a meaningful challenge for the whole party. A minion is a creature that would be consistently beaten at even odds were you 10 levels levels lower, but instead, at level, can be dispatched quickly, if not without risk.</p><p></p><p>Put those together and a single creature could be reasonably modeled as an adversary over a range of 20 levels.</p><p></p><p>How do we show, mechanically (In the fiction it's just presented as duch) it's the same creature? Or, for that matter, a comparable one? Well, it's XP value can be held constant at those different levels. </p><p></p><p>So, different stats on both sides of the conflict - increasing with level for the PCs, shifting with secondary roles for the same adversaries at those different levels - models both, and the story of their conflicts.</p><p></p><p> You could, were you inclined to "monsterbation," normalize a collection of creatures based on their relative XP values, and pit them against eachother. You should get consistent results, in that the higher XPs will out do the lower.</p><p></p><p>Now, for that ultimatum:</p><p> Then what is the point of the game? And if the answer is "the setting" or "internal consistency" or something of the sort, keep in mind that youre reducing your players to a mere audience.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7642744, member: 996"] An interesting ultimatum, and one I'll answer, but, in return, I'm going to offer a comparable one, below. Good luck with it. So, the resolution system, is not the model of the antagonist side of the conflict, alone. Rather, the broader system models the PCs and their story, including their antagonists, /as such/. In fiction - and, I mean fiction you could actually hope to publish, even if only in a 30s pulp or 19th century penny dreadful - heroes do not stolidly fight the same foes in the same level of detail over and over again. Rather, new or terrible threats get the detailed treatment, and familiar or trivial ones are finished quickly or even glossed over - because fiction is not meant to be boring. The basic d20 dice mechanic can't handle a spread of more than +/-5 without becoming unwieldy, and at +/-10, it becomes worthless. So you're either limited to modeling a narrow range of competence (sweet spot) with the game breaking down outside that, modeling improvement primarily off the d20 with geometrically exploding hp/damage (high level monsters with thousands of hps), or normalizing the range between heroes and adversaries (treadmill). None are entirely satisfying, but each can be made to work. So, in the treadmill version, you can't have adversaries with a nominal level outside the workable range of the d20 - less than +/-5 - so, instead, other factors have to vary when you would otherwise cross that threshold. That's what secondary roles are in 4e. A solo is an adversary that would be consistently beaten at even odds were you 9 levels higher, instead, at level, it's a meaningful challenge for the whole party. A minion is a creature that would be consistently beaten at even odds were you 10 levels levels lower, but instead, at level, can be dispatched quickly, if not without risk. Put those together and a single creature could be reasonably modeled as an adversary over a range of 20 levels. How do we show, mechanically (In the fiction it's just presented as duch) it's the same creature? Or, for that matter, a comparable one? Well, it's XP value can be held constant at those different levels. So, different stats on both sides of the conflict - increasing with level for the PCs, shifting with secondary roles for the same adversaries at those different levels - models both, and the story of their conflicts. You could, were you inclined to "monsterbation," normalize a collection of creatures based on their relative XP values, and pit them against eachother. You should get consistent results, in that the higher XPs will out do the lower. Now, for that ultimatum: Then what is the point of the game? And if the answer is "the setting" or "internal consistency" or something of the sort, keep in mind that youre reducing your players to a mere audience. [/QUOTE]
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