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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7643209" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>That sounds like 1980s TSR Marvel Super Heroes. MHRP has no charts of any colour. It's a relatively straightforward but surprisingly intricate dice pool system. (Dice are d4 to d12, and express attributes, whether enduring - like the Hulk's strength - or fleeting, like the Hulk's telepathically implanted belief that he is a 2 year old baby; dice pool success is determined by adding two dice, and the effect of success is determined by choosing a third die which takes effect based on size, not result. Many but not all special abilities involve dice pool manipulation.)</p><p></p><p>What I would quibble with in what you say is the word <em>model</em>. And in that quibbling I'm not taking issue with your post on its own terms, but in the context of the discussion with [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] about minions.</p><p></p><p>I'll start with a non-RPG example to try to illustrate my thinking: a recipe for chocolate cake - <em>take these ingredients, prepare them in such-and-such a way, combine them in such-and-such a way, and then bake the resulting mixture for this long at this temperature</em> - is not a model of a chocolate cake.</p><p></p><p>This isn't true of all recipes/instructions: for instance, the instructions that come with a typical box of Lego not only tell you how to build the whatever-it-is, but do so by providing a visual model of what it is you are trying to build. A route marked on a map also not only instructs you how to get from A to B, but visually models at least some of the geographic aspects of the process of doing so. A musical score also is both a recipe and a model (obviously as a model more specialised than maps and Lego instructions).</p><p></p><p>But a chocolate cake recipe is dissimilar from these other sorts of recipes. It lacks the characteristics (of representation of what is being produced; of isomorphism to the product or the process of production; etc) that would make it a model.</p><p></p><p>I'm somewhat labouring this analogy because I think it goes directly to the point about minion mechanics, or the MHRP mechanics for The Hulk and the Thing that produced the complaints I mentioned.</p><p></p><p>On the published MHRP character sheets both those characters are rated at d12 strength. Each also has additional relevant text on his PC sheet:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>The Thing</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">SFX: <em>Haymaker</em>. Double Godlike Strength for an action, then add second-highest rolling die from that action to the doom pool.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>The Hulk</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">SFX: Rage-Fueled Might. Add a die equal to your emotional stress to the doom pool to include your emotional stress in your next action. If your opponent includes your emotional stress in a reaction dice pool, step it up.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">SFX: <em>Hulk Smash!</em> Against a single opponent, double a Gamma-Charged Genetics die. Remove the highest-rolling die and add another die to your total.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">SFX: <em>Strongest There Is!</em> In a reaction against an opponent with a Strength power trait, spend 1 PP or step up your emotional stress to add a die equal to the opponent’s Strength to your dice pool.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Limit: <em>Limitless Anger</em>. When the doom pool includes at least 2d12 or you take emotional trauma, move all stress and trauma to the doom pool and activate Rampaging Hulk.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Rampaging Hulk</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">When Hulk loses control, his strength and power escalate beyond the limits of any other hero, but he becomes an almost mindless catastrophic force. While manifested, the Rampaging Hulk uses the current doom pool in place of an Affiliation die for all dice pools, similar to a Large Scale Threat. Dice added to or spent out of the doom pool affect the Rampaging Hulk’s power. The Rampaging Hulk’s dice may be targeted like a Large Scale Threat’s Affiliation dice with successful actions against him reducing the doom pool. If the doom pool is reduced to two dice, the Rampaging Hulk reverts back to Banner and all emotional stress and trauma are recovered.</p><p></p><p>That additional text does not establish a model of anything, be that a character or a genre or a trope. But each is an element of a recipe - each sets out a process that ., when incorporated into other aspects of the resolution system such as dice pool building and Doom Pool mainpulation, will lead to results in the fiction that conform to our expectations in resepct of these characters and how their endeavours should turn out.</p><p></p><p>Likewise a minion's 1 hp is not a model of that minion's (imagined) toughness. It's an element of a recipe - it tells you that, on a successful hit, we're to narrate a fiction that involves the minion having been dispatched. It's not the whole of the receipe - other elements of the recipe include such principles as <em>don't use mid-paragon minions in mid-heroic encounter building</em>. If you ignore that element of the recipe then of course you'll get silly stuff like "glass jaw ninja" ogres - ogres who dance around and are almost impossible for their mid-heroic opponents to hit, but who fall down at the first touch.</p><p></p><p>I think the notion that mechanics can be a recipe without being a model - as I said in my earlier post, that mechanics can simply be <em>fiction generation devices</em> or <em>fiction confirmation devices</em> - is fundamental to appreciating the workings of most of the RPGs (including 4e D&D) that have been mentioned in this thread. Even Classic Traveller has resolution systems that as far as I can tell aren't meant to be models of anything, like the NPC reaction table.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7643209, member: 42582"] That sounds like 1980s TSR Marvel Super Heroes. MHRP has no charts of any colour. It's a relatively straightforward but surprisingly intricate dice pool system. (Dice are d4 to d12, and express attributes, whether enduring - like the Hulk's strength - or fleeting, like the Hulk's telepathically implanted belief that he is a 2 year old baby; dice pool success is determined by adding two dice, and the effect of success is determined by choosing a third die which takes effect based on size, not result. Many but not all special abilities involve dice pool manipulation.) What I would quibble with in what you say is the word [I]model[/I]. And in that quibbling I'm not taking issue with your post on its own terms, but in the context of the discussion with [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] about minions. I'll start with a non-RPG example to try to illustrate my thinking: a recipe for chocolate cake - [I]take these ingredients, prepare them in such-and-such a way, combine them in such-and-such a way, and then bake the resulting mixture for this long at this temperature[/I] - is not a model of a chocolate cake. This isn't true of all recipes/instructions: for instance, the instructions that come with a typical box of Lego not only tell you how to build the whatever-it-is, but do so by providing a visual model of what it is you are trying to build. A route marked on a map also not only instructs you how to get from A to B, but visually models at least some of the geographic aspects of the process of doing so. A musical score also is both a recipe and a model (obviously as a model more specialised than maps and Lego instructions). But a chocolate cake recipe is dissimilar from these other sorts of recipes. It lacks the characteristics (of representation of what is being produced; of isomorphism to the product or the process of production; etc) that would make it a model. I'm somewhat labouring this analogy because I think it goes directly to the point about minion mechanics, or the MHRP mechanics for The Hulk and the Thing that produced the complaints I mentioned. On the published MHRP character sheets both those characters are rated at d12 strength. Each also has additional relevant text on his PC sheet: [indent][U]The Thing[/U] SFX: [i]Haymaker[/i]. Double Godlike Strength for an action, then add second-highest rolling die from that action to the doom pool. [U]The Hulk[/U] SFX: Rage-Fueled Might. Add a die equal to your emotional stress to the doom pool to include your emotional stress in your next action. If your opponent includes your emotional stress in a reaction dice pool, step it up. SFX: [i]Hulk Smash![/i] Against a single opponent, double a Gamma-Charged Genetics die. Remove the highest-rolling die and add another die to your total. SFX: [i]Strongest There Is![/i] In a reaction against an opponent with a Strength power trait, spend 1 PP or step up your emotional stress to add a die equal to the opponent’s Strength to your dice pool. Limit: [i]Limitless Anger[/i]. When the doom pool includes at least 2d12 or you take emotional trauma, move all stress and trauma to the doom pool and activate Rampaging Hulk. [i]Rampaging Hulk[/i] When Hulk loses control, his strength and power escalate beyond the limits of any other hero, but he becomes an almost mindless catastrophic force. While manifested, the Rampaging Hulk uses the current doom pool in place of an Affiliation die for all dice pools, similar to a Large Scale Threat. Dice added to or spent out of the doom pool affect the Rampaging Hulk’s power. The Rampaging Hulk’s dice may be targeted like a Large Scale Threat’s Affiliation dice with successful actions against him reducing the doom pool. If the doom pool is reduced to two dice, the Rampaging Hulk reverts back to Banner and all emotional stress and trauma are recovered.[/indent] That additional text does not establish a model of anything, be that a character or a genre or a trope. But each is an element of a recipe - each sets out a process that ., when incorporated into other aspects of the resolution system such as dice pool building and Doom Pool mainpulation, will lead to results in the fiction that conform to our expectations in resepct of these characters and how their endeavours should turn out. Likewise a minion's 1 hp is not a model of that minion's (imagined) toughness. It's an element of a recipe - it tells you that, on a successful hit, we're to narrate a fiction that involves the minion having been dispatched. It's not the whole of the receipe - other elements of the recipe include such principles as [I]don't use mid-paragon minions in mid-heroic encounter building[/I]. If you ignore that element of the recipe then of course you'll get silly stuff like "glass jaw ninja" ogres - ogres who dance around and are almost impossible for their mid-heroic opponents to hit, but who fall down at the first touch. I think the notion that mechanics can be a recipe without being a model - as I said in my earlier post, that mechanics can simply be [I]fiction generation devices[/I] or [I]fiction confirmation devices[/I] - is fundamental to appreciating the workings of most of the RPGs (including 4e D&D) that have been mentioned in this thread. Even Classic Traveller has resolution systems that as far as I can tell aren't meant to be models of anything, like the NPC reaction table. [/QUOTE]
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