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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7643367" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>'MSH' yes, that's what I was thinking of.</p><p></p><p>So, I'm OK with the use of the word model, in general, and in the way I was using it, obviously. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> I'm also fine with, say, a wargamer talking about modeling a specific sort of cannon used in the Battle of Trafalgar. </p><p></p><p>When Lan or Saelorn or someone like that says something like 'model the world' or 'model a hobgoblin in the fiction,' though, I have an issue. You can't model something that doesn't exist. You can model 'the fiction,' but you're literally modeling /fiction/, so I'd say MHRP models the fiction churned out by Marvel, from the snippet you posted, pretty well. But it doesn't "model the actual STR of the Thing," because The Thing only exists as fiction, not as a thing with any actual strength.</p><p></p><p>(Also, from that snippet, seems the Hulk is totally stronger than The Thing, so IDK what anyone's grousing about from that angle.)</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure I buy the logic that using a system to generate an analog of a fictional story in a very different medium isn't 'modeling' in some reasonable sense. But I do see the distinction you're drawing, if not the importance nor the validity of using or not using certain words to convey that distinction.</p><p></p><p>The way I see, it's part of a model of a genre. In this genre, heroes dispatch some foes very quickly, both to illustrate the prowess of the hero, and because said foes aren't too important to the story in any other way. </p><p></p><p> I'd draw the same distinction by saying modeling fiction instead of modeling something imagined in that fiction as if it had a real existence that model could be verified against.</p><p></p><p>I'd tie it back to the idea of 'simulationism,' as often used around here, as really being about the compromises made, particularly in wargaming, between a playable game and an accurate simulation - that is, simulationism prefers games that accept being worse games in the way that simulations must be worse games in order to be better (more accurate) simulations, in spite of simulating nothing by which such accuracy could be established.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess this points up the obvious, but easily overlooked inference that there's a spectrum between competitive games and cooperative games.</p><p></p><p>Nor does it have great mechanical resources for functioning as a cooperative game. 5e, like TSR era D&D, makes a pretty poor example of anything, except the primacy of the GM's role, I suppose.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7643367, member: 996"] 'MSH' yes, that's what I was thinking of. So, I'm OK with the use of the word model, in general, and in the way I was using it, obviously. ;) I'm also fine with, say, a wargamer talking about modeling a specific sort of cannon used in the Battle of Trafalgar. When Lan or Saelorn or someone like that says something like 'model the world' or 'model a hobgoblin in the fiction,' though, I have an issue. You can't model something that doesn't exist. You can model 'the fiction,' but you're literally modeling /fiction/, so I'd say MHRP models the fiction churned out by Marvel, from the snippet you posted, pretty well. But it doesn't "model the actual STR of the Thing," because The Thing only exists as fiction, not as a thing with any actual strength. (Also, from that snippet, seems the Hulk is totally stronger than The Thing, so IDK what anyone's grousing about from that angle.) I'm not sure I buy the logic that using a system to generate an analog of a fictional story in a very different medium isn't 'modeling' in some reasonable sense. But I do see the distinction you're drawing, if not the importance nor the validity of using or not using certain words to convey that distinction. The way I see, it's part of a model of a genre. In this genre, heroes dispatch some foes very quickly, both to illustrate the prowess of the hero, and because said foes aren't too important to the story in any other way. I'd draw the same distinction by saying modeling fiction instead of modeling something imagined in that fiction as if it had a real existence that model could be verified against. I'd tie it back to the idea of 'simulationism,' as often used around here, as really being about the compromises made, particularly in wargaming, between a playable game and an accurate simulation - that is, simulationism prefers games that accept being worse games in the way that simulations must be worse games in order to be better (more accurate) simulations, in spite of simulating nothing by which such accuracy could be established. I guess this points up the obvious, but easily overlooked inference that there's a spectrum between competitive games and cooperative games. Nor does it have great mechanical resources for functioning as a cooperative game. 5e, like TSR era D&D, makes a pretty poor example of anything, except the primacy of the GM's role, I suppose. [/QUOTE]
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