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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 3855595" data-attributes="member: 5889">I completely understand the desires of the save or die camp. They want magic at high level to be deadly, they want a way to challenge players more than just "I take away some of your 200+ hitpoints" etc.The problem is that there are many other ways to do this, and from those options, save or die is a horrible way to go about it.Here are some examples:Vile Damage: For those not familiar with BOVD, vile damage is basically damage that can't be healed by normal means. This means that damage you take in a fight can't just be whisked away by a heal spell. All of a sudden, that damage your fighter is taking is REAL damage, which creates a sense of urgency in the player.Weakness Spells: Take a hypothetical spell called "Vulnerability" that on a failed save, means you take a -4 to AC and 10 more damage from each hit. A BBEG casts that on the front line guy, and suddenly his army of mook guards is a lot more threatening. Now the party has to decide if they should try to dispel the magic, take out the guards 1st, or kill the BBEG and hope that mooks don't do too much.Status Spells with a twist: Take your standard petrification spell. Now instead of it working immediatley on round 1, it works over the course of 3 rounds (there's a spell treasury spell that already does something like this). But lets add a twist, if a character is petrified from more than 1 day, he's gone for good. The BBEG takes out a player, and then in the course of the fight, manages to teleport away with the statue. The rest of the party must fight off the mooks and then go rescue their friend before its too late.The DM then says to the petrified player: Hey man, why don't you make a temp character I'll introduce for this adventure. You can play him until the party saves you, or if you fall, you might want to keep the new one.The advantage of these kinds of effects is that they have a strong POTENTIAL to be deadly to a player. That potential is what creates drama and excitement. If a fighter is looking at his fellow frantically asking for backup because all the mooks do double damage against him, that's exciting. If he throws up his chracter sheet in disgust because he's dead and there's nothing he can do, that just creates tension.Further, it helps create party unity. If a player dies, he's forgotten, often looted. The party might res him or not depending on the level. If a player takes a big effect in combat, the rest of the party may have to take up the slack, protecting that character. From a roleplaying standpoint, that creates bonding between the chracters, but it also creates bonds between the players as well. Nothing to make a player feel better than a high five and a thanks from a grateful player whose character you just saved.In closing, save or dies are inefficient mechanics and should be dropped, but the niche they provide should not die. They should be replaced by better mechanics.</blockquote>

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