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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3859796" data-attributes="member: 2011">Yes, but the anti- save or die folk have already stated their case. Irrefutable logic will probably not sway them. WotC could post that save or die is arbitrary and not fun and will not be in 4E, and it still probably will not sway them.Most of them have probably not played in a game where the DM said "Your PC is dead." with no dice rolls. Most of them have probably not played in a game where the DM had a party of powerful good NPCs ambush in a surprise round, shoot first and ask questions later (because of behind the scene events that the PCs were not even aware of in one case, and were aware of but had no control over in the other case) and kill a PC before his initiative came up in round one (twice by two different DMs, years apart).These examples are really significantly no different than save or die (although I am sure people will claim otherwise).The die roll aspect of save or die is a joke because random arbitrary meaningless and unfun (due to sitting out) death happens the moment the DM pulls the save or die gun into the game. He might as well just say "Your PC is dead." The actual odds do not matter. 1%, 5%, or 80%. A PC can die and in fact, the DM decides which PC the NPC aimed for.Death is death if the DM decides that death is going to occur. The moment he pulls in save or die, that's his decision because he has no control over the save, hence, he no longer has control over the death. At that point, it is not a challenge to be overcome like other game mechanics. It is a random potential event whose only two results are life or death.Personally, I think save or die is the easy way for DMs to kill PCs because they cannot take out the time to think of appropriate challenges, but that's just my opinion and does not necessarily have any basis in actual fact.</blockquote>

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