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<blockquote data-quote="Geron Raveneye" data-source="post: 3860394" data-attributes="member: 2268">Irrefutable logic won't sway anybody here, mostly because what is perfectly logical to one is only a subjective point of view to another.There you go again, assuming stuff about people you simply don't know. That joke gets old quick.There's plenty people here arguing in favour of save-or-die that started playing 20 years back and more. Do you really think that in versions where poison traps where save-or-die effects and where DM fiat was a lot stronger than it is today, those players have never lost a character to the whim of one single die roll, or a surprise ambush of goblins/drow/orcs in a dungeon?Better stop assuming. It doesn't help.So basically, there shouldn't be any surprise attacks by superior forces either? How about overwhelming natural forces then? Ever had a character fall overboard with his 50-pound armor and his shield? Ever wondered what else he could do except hold his breath and bet on whether it'll be overpressure or drowning that kills him first, and all because of a failed Balance check in a battle on a stormy sea? Fallen from a griffon without your wizard buddy close to cast Feather Fall or Fly on you?MoogleEmpMog at least comes out directly and says that he would prefer his characters not to be affected by any kind of random death. How about you? How random is death allowed to be for your characters?Hence it's irrefutable. Logical? A clue...no. And you wouldn't believe how much control I can exert over the outcome of a saving throw as DM, and how much in-game potential influence I can give characters over their saving throws besides their own spells, if I want to.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Geron Raveneye, post: 3860394, member: 2268"] Irrefutable logic won't sway anybody here, mostly because what is perfectly logical to one is only a subjective point of view to another. There you go again, assuming stuff about people you simply don't know. That joke gets old quick. There's plenty people here arguing in favour of save-or-die that started playing 20 years back and more. Do you really think that in versions where poison traps where save-or-die effects and where DM fiat was a lot stronger than it is today, those players have never lost a character to the whim of one single die roll, or a surprise ambush of goblins/drow/orcs in a dungeon? Better stop assuming. It doesn't help. So basically, there shouldn't be any surprise attacks by superior forces either? How about overwhelming natural forces then? Ever had a character fall overboard with his 50-pound armor and his shield? Ever wondered what else he could do except hold his breath and bet on whether it'll be overpressure or drowning that kills him first, and all because of a failed Balance check in a battle on a stormy sea? Fallen from a griffon without your wizard buddy close to cast [i]Feather Fall[/i] or [i]Fly[/i] on you? MoogleEmpMog at least comes out directly and says that he would prefer his characters not to be affected by any kind of random death. How about you? How random is death allowed to be for your characters? Hence it's irrefutable. Logical? A clue...no. And you wouldn't believe how much control I can exert over the outcome of a saving throw as DM, and how much in-game potential influence I can give characters over their saving throws besides their own spells, if I want to. [/QUOTE]

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