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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RFisher" data-source="post: 3866391" data-attributes="member: 3608">Interestingly, I picked up my 1e PHB, went to the end of the MU spells, & started looking backwards for "save or die" spells.Power Word, Kill: No saving throw, but it does have hp limits.Symbol (Death): It looks like the death symbol doesn't allow a save, but it also has a hp limit.Interesting.FWIW, I will agree that this--& possibly the 4e beholder's gradual stoning--can be very interesting in their own right.Personally, I think the bodak is an awful example for this discussion. Even without his death gaze, I can't imagine using that monster except in very specific circumstances.I don't think it's a badly designed monster. It's cool when players can use planning & characters can use their abilities to turn a possibly fatal encounter into a cakewalk.But then, I don't take the CR system very seriously. There's no way a single number can give you anything but a very vague idea of how big a challenge a monster is going to be without greatly simplifying the game to remove a bunch of the axes/variables involved.</blockquote>