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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Geron Raveneye" data-source="post: 3866933" data-attributes="member: 2268">Honestly, I'd be surprised if they haven't put some sort of save-or-die-like effect in 4E as well, but it will probably work with in a way that will be more palatable to you and the rest of the roughly 66% of the voters that are against save-or-die. At least I hope they will, since it seems to be a big thorn in the side of many. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I also hope they won't have reduced it to a boring "save or suffer heaps of damage" rule. There's half a dozen more creative ideas in these two threads alone than save-or-damage.One thing I definitely get out of these discussions is a good view at where 3E design did some fairly obvious blunders. Bodaks as random encounter monsters, for example, instead of special effect monsters. Death effect spells that in older editions were the providence of the mightiest mages and clerics (in a game that routinely stops around level 13-14, 9th level IS damn powerful) put to work as everyday weapons at half-level-cap (in a game designed for 20+ levels, level 9 is simply half the way). And apparently, more focus on mechanically expressing the whole stuff than on telling the DM what to actually DO with all those abilities, judging from some of the comments here. CR doesn't count, that mechanic is thrown out of whack by so many things I don't really consider it reliable anyway.Oh, and to answer one of Hussar's posts...why should I have a problem with an encounter that is guaranteed to kill one out of four characters? Isn't that what an appropriate challenge rating is supposed to do? Eliminate 25% of the group's resources? One out of four. Just because there are some monsters that don't spread that out over the whole group, but simply punch out one character completely instead? If I shied away from the potential of a dead character, I shouldn't use strong encounters.And yep, I'm going to bow out of this cyclic discussion a well. All has been said, and I think I've got a pretty good picture of the different opinions now, so even if we didn't come to a consense in this discussion, I think it was way from wasted time. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Good gaming, and see you in another thread. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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