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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8264293" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Alright, I'm not going to put my first post out here about Apocalypse World or Dogs in the Vineyard.  I think instead I'm going to depict Story Now play for you (because there is some confusion with Storyteller type systems) and compare Torchbearer and Blades in the Dark (extremely similar in several ways) and contrast with Dungeon World.STORY NOW vs STORY BEFOREStory Now games are a response to White Wolf (actual Storyteller system) and AD&D2e/Dragonlance games that were predicated upon Story Before.The Before here connotes a collection of attributes about play (they aren't necessarily all in play, but they typically ride together):* There is a plot already before play.  Setting and situations are prefabricated to enable the plot stays online/relevant.* There is story advocacy on one or both sides of the screen.  Rather than "playing to find out", you're playing to advocate for specific story outcomes.* Themes don't change and characters don't erode/change in nature outside of the absolute volition of the participants.* System doesn't get its "say" if its "say" is in competition with the vision of the participants of play (typically the GM who is advised to ignore rules/outcomes that would interfere with desired outcome).* If you sum it all up, there is a sort of Cosplay element that undergirds everything here from (a) what the story is going to be, (b) what the theme is going to be and if it will change, (c) where things will end up and how the characters will end up (typically intact unless it is the will of the table that this isn't so).Look at Story Now as an intentionally designed alternative to all of those things.* There is no plot.  Setting and situation will orbit around the premise of play + the dramatic needs of the characters.* No one is advocating for specific story outcomes.  They're advocating for their character's dramatic needs and all other aspects of system are pushing back against that.  Everyone is curious and playing to find out what happens when protagonism meets opposition.  The game is systemitized to distill this conflict and sort out the fallout, continuing this loop until there is nothing left to do.* Premise will absolutely be online (because its baked into the game) but Theme is only very roughly sketched at the beginning and it/they will change as the story emerges and characters erode/change/rebuild (or not) through the collisions mentioned above.* System always has its "say."  Rules and procedures and authority distribution are all followed and where they lead, we go.* There is no Cosplay element.  There is no Power Fantasy element.So all of that stuff adds up to constant curiosity by all participants and constant discovery (about the world, about the themes, about the characters).  There is no Before (no throughline on play that undergirds/guides everything).  There is only Now. [HR][/HR]Crap.  I'm short on time.  I'm not going to be able to get into the Blades and Torchbearer comparison and contrast with Dungeon World.  Going to be a busy day and evening so its not clear if I'll be able to get back to this.  But consider what I've written above as a primer for my next post.  Hopefully it clarifies the differences.</blockquote>

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