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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 8264450" data-attributes="member: 6698278">It would be interesting to see the differences across these games.  They are all probably sharing elements but they also likely diverge in particular ways.  I very much know you are trying not to be pejorative towards my style but I think you struggle to avoid it because your personal experience has been bad.  A lot of things you propose as true just aren't when I play.Yes a world preexists the characters controlled by the players engaging.  Perhaps a plot is a strong term.  There are many NPCs all over the place pursuing their ambitions.   It's like the real world.   People playing my style of game are seeking a "real world" sort of agency in a fantasy world with fantasy characters.  If by advocating for an outcome, you mean achieving character goals then yes.  If the group has decided a dragon has to go because it keeps raiding a village and they see it as their duty to deal with the threat then they will try to make that happen.   There is a lot of finding out though.   A lot of investigating and exploring may occur prior to fighting the dragon.  Defeating some of his allies for example.   So the sense of wonder is very much there.  I think you downplay it.   As a player character, there is a world to discover and part of the joy of playing is finding out about that world.This is a tough one.   What themes do you mean?  I think the flavor of any adventure or series of adventures can be different in a sandbox world.  You could have horror in one case, major exploration in another, and political intrigue in another.   I suppose the personalities of the characters don't change unless the player makes that change if that is your point.  I would think that is a good thing as playing a character you no longer like is not that fun.Well if you allow the dice to fall where they fall as I do, the system weighs in often.  I never force an outcome.   I also tend not to create situations where an outcome is necessary or the game breaks.  I don't put breaking the game in my characters hands.  I suppose there are people out there that play as you suggest but it's definitely not me or my groups.   GMs that bend the game to a certain outcome, better known as railroaders, exist of course but it's hardly an aspect of the style.  It's a trait of some games.  It's not a trait of my games.When you speak of dramatic needs, this seems to me like cosplay.  You want to see yourself on a stage doing things in a way that is cool to you.   I just want to be a fantasy hero in a fantasy world.  I want to be a hero because I made the right decisions both tactically and morally (in game morality here).   On this I perceive the separation between who the character is and who the player is is greater.   I'm trying to bring them together as much as possible.  Of course we can't do the things our characters can do but where the overlap can exist it's a desirable outcome.In our games the GM is supreme but that means the GM is only limited by his own code and not that he is not limited at all.  I really think cosplay here is the exact opposite of the truth.   I do think the sense of accomplishment as you overcome challenges and advance in level though is very much part of the game.   Whether before or now, the players are experiencing it in the now.  And there is no throughline in a truly sandbox style of play.  Perhaps in pure AP adventuring this assertion would be true.This would be interesting so I look forward to it.   Game designs can be interesting even when they are not my cup of tea.</blockquote>

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