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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8264758" data-attributes="member: 42582">This merits a separate response.I think there is a difference between the game uses numbers to measure degree of potential game effect and the game uses numbers to quantify the relationship between elements of the fiction.To give a simple example: in AD&D a fighter with 90 hp is harder to defeat in combat than a fighter with 10 hp. That's a fact about the game play. But those numbers don't quantify the relationship between those fighters. Gygax is pretty clear about this in his DMG. It is even clearer if I compare the 90 hp fighter to the 90 hp dragon: the latter has lots of meat, the former lots of "divine protection". Divine protection here is not a quantitatively described ingame element. It's just a label given to a gameplay device, that the higher-level fighter is harder to kill but - in the fiction - hasn't grown to have the size and strength of a dragon. More strictly "simulationist" games like RuneQuest and Rolemaster handle this by using other mechanical devices to make skilled/"high level" fighters harder to kill (eg better parry numbers or dodge numbers).To give a more contentious but I think more egregious example: in 3E D&D monster AC grows essentially without bound, by piling on ever-higher "natural armour" bonuses. The label natural armour seems intended to imply that these bonuses are quantifying some component of the fiction. But it has to be nonsense. The best possible plate amour in that system grants a bonus to AC of +15 or thereabouts (+6 magical plate). But there are monsters with natural armour bonuses in the 30s! What does that mean in the fiction? And why can't an archmage, or a god, forge magical armour that is just as protective? Once again we have a case of numbers being used to measure degree of potential game effect (in this case, they are defence numbers) that are not (despite the application of the "natural armour" tag) quantifying any relationship between in world game elements.It's true that in a PbtA game a player can't typically increase the mathematical chance of success by accreting bonuses. (This is not strictly the case - eg in Apocalyopse World itself a player can step up defence numbers by getting heavier armour, or step up damage by getting bigger guns and grenades.) But that doesn't mean that there is no playing of the fiction to deal with situations. Quite the opposite. I recently read an excellent account of this in the Ironsworn rulebook (p 2081):A leviathan is an ancient sea beast (page 154). It’s tough to kill because of its epic rank, and it inflicts epic harm, but it doesn’t have any other mechanical characteristics. If we look to the fiction of the leviathan’s, description, we see “flesh as tough as iron.” But, rolling a Strike against a leviathan is the same as against a common thug. In either case, it’s your action die, plus your stat and adds compared to the challenge dice. Your chances to score a strong hit, weak hit, or miss are the same. So how do you give the leviathan its due as a terrifying, seemingly invulnerable foe? You do it through the fiction. If you have sworn a vow to defeat a leviathan, are you armed with a suitable weapon? Punching it won’t work. Even a deadly weapon such as a spear would barely get its attention. Perhaps you undertook a quest to find the Abyssal Harpoon, an artifact from the Old World, carved from the bones of a long-dead sea god. This mythic weapon gives you the fictional framing you need to confront the monster, and finding it can count as a milestone on your vow to destroy this beast. Even with your weapon at the ready, can you overcome your fears as you stand on the prow of your boat, the water surging beneath you, the gaping maw of the beast just below the surface? Face Danger with +heart to find out. The outcome of your move will incorporate the leviathan’s devastating power. Did you score a miss? The beast smashes your boat to kindling. It tries to drag you into the depths. Want to Face Danger by swimming away? You can’t outswim a leviathan. You’ll have to try something else. Remember the concepts behind fictional framing. Your readiness and the nature of your challenge may force you to overcome greater dangers and make additional moves. Once you’ve rolled the dice, your fictional framing provides context for the outcome of those moves.The focus is not on mechanical manipulation or accumulation of numbers. It's on the fictional positioning of the character, and the "stakes" understood in fictional terms. At least for my part that doesn't make the fiction less visceral or less real.</blockquote>

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