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<blockquote data-quote="Jasperak" data-source="post: 447489" data-attributes="member: 2487">What a lovely problem, and an equally lovely solution...First off, in my opinion any player that uses the rulebooks in a manner such as this is begging for trouble.&nbsp; By this I&nbsp; mean if they cannot cast the spell themselves they should not be looking it up in the book.Second, I agree with the use of Spellcraft and knowledge checks in this case, although success does not allow the player to use the book.&nbsp; They should receive that info from the DM.&nbsp; Think about it, the DM uses a Prismatic Wall but changes the spells used to overcome each color.&nbsp; Does the DM tell the player to use the book or give the appropriate info.Third, they really changed their tactics based on metagaming knowledge?&nbsp; Bad players, very bad players. IMHOOCThis is what I would do as DM.&nbsp; Penalize the players for using metagaming knowledge.&nbsp; A few combats later, have the party engage a force that is perfectly suited to capitalize on the party's weaknesses.&nbsp; Slam the party hard and make sure they know that the enemies opened up their Monster's Handbook.&nbsp; Make sure they know that it is not DM v. Players, but Characters v. Situations.&nbsp; If they want to use metagaming knowledge, then you have to as well.&nbsp; (I would start throwing spells, monsters, and some such that are not in any books that they own; make them up as well.)Maybe twenty years ago their actions would fly, but this ain't your grandpappy's D&amp;D anymore.&nbsp; I have had first hand experience with this from 2 different groups that continue to play 1e.&nbsp; We actually spent two sessions in one game looking through the books to find ways to defeat certain creatures, of course with boatloads of metagame knowledge.&nbsp; Killing Lolth in 2 rounds was not as fulfilling as one would think, and hearing about it 10 years later even less.&nbsp; Luckily I was able to convert one of the groups to 3e and that has been going well.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jasperak, post: 447489, member: 2487"] What a lovely problem, and an equally lovely solution... First off, in my opinion any player that uses the rulebooks in a manner such as this is begging for trouble. By this I mean if they cannot cast the spell themselves they should not be looking it up in the book. Second, I agree with the use of Spellcraft and knowledge checks in this case, although success does not allow the player to use the book. They should receive that info from the DM. Think about it, the DM uses a Prismatic Wall but changes the spells used to overcome each color. Does the DM tell the player to use the book or give the appropriate info. Third, they really changed their tactics based on metagaming knowledge? Bad players, very bad players. IMHOOC This is what I would do as DM. Penalize the players for using metagaming knowledge. A few combats later, have the party engage a force that is perfectly suited to capitalize on the party's weaknesses. Slam the party hard and make sure they know that the enemies opened up their Monster's Handbook. Make sure they know that it is not DM v. Players, but Characters v. Situations. If they want to use metagaming knowledge, then you have to as well. (I would start throwing spells, monsters, and some such that are not in any books that they own; make them up as well.) Maybe twenty years ago their actions would fly, but this ain't your grandpappy's D&D anymore. I have had first hand experience with this from 2 different groups that continue to play 1e. We actually spent two sessions in one game looking through the books to find ways to defeat certain creatures, of course with boatloads of metagame knowledge. Killing Lolth in 2 rounds was not as fulfilling as one would think, and hearing about it 10 years later even less. Luckily I was able to convert one of the groups to 3e and that has been going well. [/QUOTE]

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