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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ferratus" data-source="post: 5609938" data-attributes="member: 55966">[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] - The DM sets the DC of whether the diplomacy check works or not anyway, so if the DM doesn't like the "pre" Diplomacy spiel because the player is not persuasive or not charismatic then he'll set the DC so that it is likely to fail anyway.On the obverse, when a player takes the time to be interested in learning the target NPC's needs or wants, makes a reasonable deal, and does roleplay well why punish him with an arbitary failure roll of the dice?As for "the DM allowing it", every player I've ever gamed with has treated it as a bludgeon, because players will always seek the quickest and easiest way to overcome an obstacle.  The order is 1) Kill it.  2) If you can't kill it, then do a diplomacy check to get your way.  3) If you don't have diplomacy then use intimidate to get your way.  4) If you can't intimidate without repercussions then use a spell slot for charm person.  5) Actually care about the story and interacting with PC's.  6) Spend gold or favours.The moment that completely soured me on Diplomacy was a game where the PC's wanted to get past the city guards at the gate.  My wife was playing a bard, and being a bard rolled diplomacy and told me that she rolled 25 on her Diplomacy check, and that the guard likes her enough to simply let her past without checking her papers and possessions.  I asked her how that could be, when she hasn't given me any reason why he would do that.   This led to a huge row with everyone at the table, with the sentiment being that if she had to give a bribe, then why bother with diplomacy?   The fact that you have to actually make a deal with NPC's to get your way became a frequent source of conflict.   When we switched to 2e and the Diplomacy skill vanished, the source of conflict did too.  Now people actually engage the NPC's and find out what they need or want.  If they make a reasonable effort to communicate with the NPC, generally they get what they want... and they didn't even realize the difference in how their playstyle had changed.</blockquote>

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