Playing dead in combat

[Dirty Magurdy]

Situation:
I'm running a 3.5 D&D game, my characters are 14th and 15th level.
In a battle last session a character (ftr/clr) took a good amount of damage and told me he wanted to go down as if he were incapacitated.
I told him to roll me perform (acting) and he asked if he could roll bluff, to which I told him, "no. roll perform"
He rolled poorly and he did end up going unconscious the next round, being pummeled to -8 and almost dying (the group's ranger was able to stabilize him).

So, I have a few questions.
First: Should the skill roll have been bluff or perform? Could either work? Might some other skill be used that neither of us thought of?

Second: Should I have made him wait for his initiative to perform either of those actions? If he wanted to 'play dead' should he have been holding an action and waiting to be hit in order to use an action to do this?

The player accepted my ruling with no complaint, so there's no real problem here, but I do want to discuss it with him some time before next session and hear what he thinks. I just want to get some opinions about whether I handled it correctly from some of you.

 

[Dandu]

There is a feat that allows you to perform this action in the PHBII, called Combat Panache.

It requires a bluff check.

 

[Herzog]

Which raises the questions: If you do NOT have the feat:
Are you still allowed to play dead?
If so, does it require a move action instead of the immediate action, or do you need to ready an action to do this (since it's not your turn when you are hit)?
Is it still a bluff check?
If so, does it carry extra penalties because you don't have the feat?

It seems wrong somehow to need a feat to perform an action so obvious in a battle, but the feat in question lacks the 'Normal:' addition present in other feats to clarify what you can or cannot do without the feat.

ps: spam post reported

 

[Jhaelen]

First: Should the skill roll have been bluff or perform? Could either work? Might some other skill be used that neither of us thought of?

Second: Should I have made him wait for his initiative to perform either of those actions? If he wanted to 'play dead' should he have been holding an action and waiting to be hit in order to use an action to do this?

It's hard to say without knowing more of the situation. If the overall situation looked rather bad for the party, I'd have been more lenient or merciful than otherwise.

If someone wanted to drop in the middle of a series of attacks, I wouldn't call for a check at all. I'd just continue attacking another target if in reach or continue attacking the downed pc. After a single attack, I'd just move to a different target.

Only if an enemy took time to investigate the pc closer would I have called for a Bluff check.

To be honest I wouldn't even have thought about the Perform skill. It's a skill that might as well not exist if it wasn't for bards. I wouldn't expect any char to be trained in that skill.

 

[radmod]

First: Should the skill roll have been bluff or perform? Could either work? Might some other skill be used that neither of us thought of?

A Bluff check "encompasses acting, conning, etc." We've always gamed "playing dead" as a Bluff action vs. Sense Motive. I, personally, would allow a Perform check if the PC wanted (also opposed by a Sense Motive).

Second: Should I have made him wait for his initiative to perform either of those actions? If he wanted to 'play dead' should he have been holding an action and waiting to be hit in order to use an action to do this?

First, "drop to the floor" is a free action. The Bluff check rule: "A Bluff check made as part of general interaction always takes at least 1 round (and is at least a full-round action), " So, regardless of when you allow the action, it would be a full round action.
Second, technically a free action is in combination with another action (or as an action on your initiative). However, from what I've seen most people allow free actions, such as talking, even when it is not your turn and you're not flat-footed (essentially an non-limited immediate action).

Under standard initiative, it seems the PC has to wait till his turn (or ready the action).
However, personally I would allow it as a free action on another creature's turn and treat it as a full round action. I would also modify the player's initiative to after the creature's initiative if his were higher.

 

[zaulsiin]

However, personally I would allow it as a free action on another creature's turn and treat it as a full round action. I would also modify the player's initiative to after the creature's initiative if his were higher.

+1.
This is a fairly elegant solution. A sort of special immediate action, that sacrifices the character's next turn. It has the risk vs reward aspect to it, wherein if it succeeds then the character avoids getting pasted on the next hit, but if it fails then they've lost an action and are extremely vulnerable.
I would probably attach some restrictions to it (character has to have <10 hp remaining, or some such), just to try and avoid abuse, but otherwise I really like it.

 

[Dirty Magurdy]

Thanks for the info about the feat, but my game is strictly core and Scarred Lands setting material so feats from the PHBII are not available.

It's hard to say without knowing more of the situation. If the overall situation looked rather bad for the party, I'd have been more lenient or merciful than otherwise.

If someone wanted to drop in the middle of a series of attacks, I wouldn't call for a check at all. I'd just continue attacking another target if in reach or continue attacking the downed pc. After a single attack, I'd just move to a different target.

I'd rather be consistent with the ruling. Not have a method in use for when things are going bad and a seperate one for normal uses - really, would someone feign death if things weren't going bad?

These monsters were pretty intent on taking the group's healers out of action. I don't recall if any other targets were in reach, but the cleric rolled horribly to con them, I don't see a problem with letting them continue their attacks, with the bonus for attacking a prone foe.

A Bluff check "encompasses acting, conning, etc." We've always gamed "playing dead" as a Bluff action vs. Sense Motive. I, personally, would allow a Perform check if the PC wanted (also opposed by a Sense Motive).

Good point. In the future I'll allow bluff, though I still don't think it's the right skill for this use, but I guess it's more fair to players who are not bards. I will expect a player to wait for his turn before performing his/her perform or bluff check.

However, personally I would allow it as a free action on another creature's turn and treat it as a full round action. I would also modify the player's initiative to after the creature's initiative if his were higher.

+1.
This is a fairly elegant solution. A sort of special immediate action, that sacrifices the character's next turn. It has the risk vs reward aspect to it, wherein if it succeeds then the character avoids getting pasted on the next hit, but if it fails then they've lost an action and are extremely vulnerable.
I would probably attach some restrictions to it (character has to have <10 hp remaining, or some such), just to try and avoid abuse, but otherwise I really like it.

I don't much like that solution, a bit complicated and might open the door to other types of "special immediate actions.". I'll just tell the player to wait until his initiative then go into his death scene. I'll not penalize him because his "death" is occuring seconds after the monster's attack. But if the monster has more attacks he's still a viable target; I'll let my players know that if they plan on faking death in combat they need to hold an action to do it while they are being attacked, or wait for their turn to bluff the opponent (as a full round action).


Thanks for the help everyone, really appreciate it.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Without the feat, I'd allow it as an immediate action (if you can't act dead till your turn comes up, the whole idea's kinda pointless). Possibly make it take your entire full round action the next round on your turn if I thought allowing it for only the cost of a swift/immediate action was too good.

You could roll Bluff or Perform (acting) I suppose, as far as I'm concerned the two have a lot of overlap. Opponents viewing can roll opposed sense motive or heal checks, whichever is higher.

You'd get no benefit upon getting back up, that'd be one of the perks of actually having the feat. And like the feat, you'd be limited to using against the same people again.

I'll also say: Play Dead is definitely NOT a very powerful tactic and possibly the weakest of the 3 (do remember it's only 1/3 of a feat on its own, and that presumes all 3 tactics are equally good). When I take Combat Panache, it's for Sneering Glower and the possibility of Fortuitous Tumble being useful maybe once or twice in my character's entire career. I don't see the problem in allowing most of what Play Dead does without the feat, and it's definitely something anybody should be able to attempt.

 

[Dirty Magurdy]

Without the feat, I'd allow it as an immediate action (if you can't act dead till your turn comes up, the whole idea's kinda pointless). Possibly make it take your entire full round action the next round on your turn if I thought allowing it for only the cost of a swift/immediate action was too good.

You could roll Bluff or Perform (acting) I suppose, as far as I'm concerned the two have a lot of overlap. Opponents viewing can roll opposed sense motive or heal checks, whichever is higher.

You'd get no benefit upon getting back up, that'd be one of the perks of actually having the feat. And like the feat, you'd be limited to using against the same people again.

I'll also say: Play Dead is definitely NOT a very powerful tactic and possibly the weakest of the 3 (do remember it's only 1/3 of a feat on its own, and that presumes all 3 tactics are equally good). When I take Combat Panache, it's for Sneering Glower and the possibility of Fortuitous Tumble being useful maybe once or twice in my character's entire career. I don't see the problem in allowing most of what Play Dead does without the feat, and it's definitely something anybody should be able to attempt.

Again, I don't like the idea of using it as a full-round immediate action - might bring up other instances where other types reactions could arguably become immediate actions. I don't think it becomes pointless, just not a tactic characters are likely to use as often as they might otherwise if it was made easier for them, as this would do. I agree it's not a powerful tactic, I'm not worried about any power associated with this, just trying to get a system in place that fits my game.


As far as the feats you mention I don't know where they're from or what they do - probably why I limit my game to books I am familiar with (Core and Scarredlands setting books). I appreciate the help, but most of what you're telling me makes no sense.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The "feats" I mentioned are the three tactics of Combat Panache, already linked to. It's a tactical feat, it gives you three "tactical" abilities that require certain conditions to be met to be used, instead of a singular benefit like most feats. Play Dead is only one of the tactics, and definitely not the best of them.

I say it's worthless if you can't decieve the enemies immediately because there's no point in dropping fake dead if until your turn they still think you're alive and/or a threat. All you did was give yourself -4 AC from prone. And how believable is it, after they've laid waste to you and you're still ok far as they can tell, to suddenly hit "dead" once your turn comes up. Heck, if you can't actually fake your death until yourturn comes up, there's no point in even starting the process by dropping to the floor limp out of turn. I'd probably just leave it as an immediate action, but if it seemed too strong I'd include a clause that it costs you your turn next round, since bluff is normally a full round action it seems.

EDIT:
[sblock]

Your glowing personality and sharp performance abilities allow you to navigate the battlefield on sheer chutzpah alone. While others rely on swords and armor, you use your cutting wit and ability to manipulate others.

Prerequisite: Bluff 8 ranks, Intimidate 8 ranks, Perform 8 ranks.
Benefit: The Combat Panache feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Fortuitous Tumble: For a brief moment, you appear to let your guard down. As your foe swings at you, you slip our of the way, causing his attack to slam into one of his allies. By positioning yourself correctly and making yourself an appealing target, yots dupe your foe into making a critical blunder. To use this maneuver, you must be successfully attacked by a foe. On your next turn, you can take a move action to make a Bluff check opposed by his Sense Motive check. If you succeed on the check, you can take an immediate action at the start of your foe's next turn and designate a different target for your opponent's next melee attack (which must be a creature it threatens).
Play Dead: You crumple to the ground as if slain, luring your opponent into a false sense of security. As an immediate action after you are hit for at least 10 points of damage by a single attack, you can attempt to play dead. You drop prone and make a Bluff check opposed by your attacker's (or any other relevant observer's) Sense Motive check. If you succeed on this check, the observer assumes you are dead. If you subsequently rise and attack him in the same round, he loses any attack of opportunity he might have been entitled to against you, and he loses his Dexterity bonus to AC against the first attack that you make. You can use this ability once per encounter. Standing up after playing dead does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Sneering Glower: With just the right mix ofyour intimidating presence and your martial talents, you strike such fear into your target that he has difficulty fighting you effectively. On your next turn after you deal at least 1 point of damage to your opponent, you can make an Intimidate check against him as a move action. If you succeed on this check, your foe takes a penalty on his attack rolls against you equal to your Charisma bonus. You can gain this benefit against only one foe at a time; it lasts for the duration of the encounter or until you switch targets. If you designate a new target for this ability (by attempting a new Intimidate check against a different creature), the previous target no longer takes the penalty on his attack rolls against you. Opponents that are immune to the effects of the Intimidate skill, such as mindless creatures and those with immunity to fear, are immune to this maneuver.
Special: A fighter can select Combat Panache as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[/sblock]