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Playing non-healer clerics
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8911084" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>Oh, that is easy. there is no other class with the mechanics necessary to do what I want in that regard. A Paladin holy warrior can not keep up using cantrips and thunder/lighting effects and that is what I wanted to do (with one of those characters anyway). A wizard probably could have kept up mechanically and I could have added the thematic elements to make her a holy warrior, but that would be even more off-brand than a Cleric.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree completly, I should play the class I want to play. And the Wizard is designed to melee or it would not have those spell and subclass options. And if you choose the right spells it not only can melee occasionally, it can can tank as well or better than just about any other class. The Wizard class IS designed to do that. That is why spells like shield and blur exist.</p><p></p><p>Classes are designed to do everything you can do with them. Rangers are designed to be faces because you can build the best face possible using a Ranger, Wizards are designed to be in melee because you can build one of the best melee characters using those mechanics. Fighters are designed to be casters because you can build a fighter that is a decent caster (in tier 1/tier 2)</p><p></p><p>On the other hand Sorcerers are not designed to be in melee and Barbarians are not designed to cast spells because you can't build examples that do that well. The mechanics are not there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I like Bladesingers and Eldritch Kinghts better than any Gish from a previous addition but Bladesingers can do a lot more than dabble. A Bladesinger optimized for melee is a better tank than just about any other build in the game and a lot better than GISH subclasses in previous editions were. When I build a bladesinger it is not because I want to dabble and drift, it is because I want to drop into the middle of the enemy line and suck up every single attack they throw against me.</p><p></p><p>You can build bladesinger differently. You can build them to be casters with some better defenses, you can build them to dabble and drift or to combine offensive spells with melee. But that is not what I like to do with them.</p><p></p><p>An Eldritch Knight is a full on fighter, you can build him into a Gish type if you want, but it has the mechanics to be a full martial.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is .... and it is the one I am choosing.</p><p></p><p>Wizard does melee exactly like I want</p><p></p><p>Cleric does holy Warrior exactly like I want</p><p></p><p>Paladin does frightening controller exactly like I want</p><p></p><p>Other classes don't do what I wanted as well for those three example characters.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh absolutely they do. What I write on the top of my character sheet is all about agency. It is how I choose to build my character.</p><p></p><p>This is like saying putting "Female" or "Tamra" on my character sheet is not agency as I could make a character with "Male" and "Bob" written on the top instead.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They do change the mechanics. Writing Cleric on top of your character sheet changes the mechanics of that character. If you had fighter written on top of it would have different mechanics. It changes your class.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The same reason the name, gender and deity are important!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If there was a class that served those interests better I would have chosen it. That I chose a class for a specific character by definition means the mechanics of that class suit what I want to do better than any other class (or at least I think they do when I make that choice).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If I am playing a Cleric it is because the Cleric class is designed to do what I want to do better than any other class. Otherwise I would not be playing it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No they don't. I even said above I disagree with the idea that fighters must do melee.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not true. As I mentioned above Sorcerers can not be made into effective melee characters. Druids can't either except at very low levels or very high levels and only then by shapeshifting. Bards and Warlocks make poor tanks and mediocre melee characters at best unless multiclassed with something else.</p><p></p><p>If you really want to tank and do it well you are going to need to play a Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric or Wizard.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The mechanics allow Wizards to do all those things (well all those things except investigators). Those things are part of what the class is "designed to do". If the mechanics were different they would not be as good at those things.</p><p></p><p>Also a wizard, or any full caster, can be a decent healer if you pick up Magic Initiate with goodberry and the Gift of the Metallic Dragon feats. That will give you a free casting of Cure Wounds and the ability to use your spells slots for it as well as creating a ton of goodberrys with any leftover slots. That is not as good as some other classes can be, but with full caster slots it is passable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the mechanics support a certain style of play in a fashion that is effective then by definition the class is designed to do that.</p><p></p><p>You do generally have to build up to it though. I mentioned that Wizard is one of the best melee classes in the game, but this really does not get there until 6th level. On that journey you will be poor at 1st level, good twice a day at 2nd level. At 5th level you will get to awesome 3 times a day and passable for the rest of the day. At 6th level you will finally get to where you are top flight with enough slots to last you a day and bladesinger extra attack which makes you good all day long and awesome in 3 fights.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile a Fighter optimized to tank has been great since level 1 and even at level 6 is still pretty close to a Bladesinger optimized for melee.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8911084, member: 7030563"] Oh, that is easy. there is no other class with the mechanics necessary to do what I want in that regard. A Paladin holy warrior can not keep up using cantrips and thunder/lighting effects and that is what I wanted to do (with one of those characters anyway). A wizard probably could have kept up mechanically and I could have added the thematic elements to make her a holy warrior, but that would be even more off-brand than a Cleric. I disagree completly, I should play the class I want to play. And the Wizard is designed to melee or it would not have those spell and subclass options. And if you choose the right spells it not only can melee occasionally, it can can tank as well or better than just about any other class. The Wizard class IS designed to do that. That is why spells like shield and blur exist. Classes are designed to do everything you can do with them. Rangers are designed to be faces because you can build the best face possible using a Ranger, Wizards are designed to be in melee because you can build one of the best melee characters using those mechanics. Fighters are designed to be casters because you can build a fighter that is a decent caster (in tier 1/tier 2) On the other hand Sorcerers are not designed to be in melee and Barbarians are not designed to cast spells because you can't build examples that do that well. The mechanics are not there. I like Bladesingers and Eldritch Kinghts better than any Gish from a previous addition but Bladesingers can do a lot more than dabble. A Bladesinger optimized for melee is a better tank than just about any other build in the game and a lot better than GISH subclasses in previous editions were. When I build a bladesinger it is not because I want to dabble and drift, it is because I want to drop into the middle of the enemy line and suck up every single attack they throw against me. You can build bladesinger differently. You can build them to be casters with some better defenses, you can build them to dabble and drift or to combine offensive spells with melee. But that is not what I like to do with them. An Eldritch Knight is a full on fighter, you can build him into a Gish type if you want, but it has the mechanics to be a full martial. There is .... and it is the one I am choosing. Wizard does melee exactly like I want Cleric does holy Warrior exactly like I want Paladin does frightening controller exactly like I want Other classes don't do what I wanted as well for those three example characters. Oh absolutely they do. What I write on the top of my character sheet is all about agency. It is how I choose to build my character. This is like saying putting "Female" or "Tamra" on my character sheet is not agency as I could make a character with "Male" and "Bob" written on the top instead. They do change the mechanics. Writing Cleric on top of your character sheet changes the mechanics of that character. If you had fighter written on top of it would have different mechanics. It changes your class. The same reason the name, gender and deity are important! If there was a class that served those interests better I would have chosen it. That I chose a class for a specific character by definition means the mechanics of that class suit what I want to do better than any other class (or at least I think they do when I make that choice). If I am playing a Cleric it is because the Cleric class is designed to do what I want to do better than any other class. Otherwise I would not be playing it. No they don't. I even said above I disagree with the idea that fighters must do melee. Not true. As I mentioned above Sorcerers can not be made into effective melee characters. Druids can't either except at very low levels or very high levels and only then by shapeshifting. Bards and Warlocks make poor tanks and mediocre melee characters at best unless multiclassed with something else. If you really want to tank and do it well you are going to need to play a Paladin, Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric or Wizard. The mechanics allow Wizards to do all those things (well all those things except investigators). Those things are part of what the class is "designed to do". If the mechanics were different they would not be as good at those things. Also a wizard, or any full caster, can be a decent healer if you pick up Magic Initiate with goodberry and the Gift of the Metallic Dragon feats. That will give you a free casting of Cure Wounds and the ability to use your spells slots for it as well as creating a ton of goodberrys with any leftover slots. That is not as good as some other classes can be, but with full caster slots it is passable. If the mechanics support a certain style of play in a fashion that is effective then by definition the class is designed to do that. You do generally have to build up to it though. I mentioned that Wizard is one of the best melee classes in the game, but this really does not get there until 6th level. On that journey you will be poor at 1st level, good twice a day at 2nd level. At 5th level you will get to awesome 3 times a day and passable for the rest of the day. At 6th level you will finally get to where you are top flight with enough slots to last you a day and bladesinger extra attack which makes you good all day long and awesome in 3 fights. Meanwhile a Fighter optimized to tank has been great since level 1 and even at level 6 is still pretty close to a Bladesinger optimized for melee. [/QUOTE]
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