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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Faolyn" data-source="post: 8497659" data-attributes="member: 6915329">Open up the 5e PHB. Look at Chapter 1. Look at ability scores: It describes what stats are important for what class, and what race gives bonuses to that class. Look at Building Bruenor. He's a dwarf (+2 Strength). Strength is important for fighters. Bruenor maxes out his Strength score, "since he's a fighter." Then move to Chapter 3. Look at the Quick Build for each class. It tells you where to put your highest stats.Obvious Intent: If you want to play a class, you should look at the associated stat, pick a race that gets a bonus to that stat, and max it out by putting your highest number in that stat. Now, if the example character had been an elf fighter who went for Strength-based weapons instead of finesse weapons, or a stealthy half-orc rogue, you might have a point. But right from the start of the book they're showing readers to go for the optimized build.Now open up the 5e DMG. Look at the introduction, under Know Your Players. What types of players are there? Players who like acting, players who like exploring, players who like instigating, players who like fighting, players who like optimizing, players who like problem-solving, and players who like storytelling. And each type of player contains a list of ways the DM can engage that sort of player. Later on, in Chapter 8, under "Engaging the Players, it gives tips on how to make sure that action-oriented players (such as optimizers) have fun in RP-heavy sessions.Obvious Intent: The book recognizes and supports the idea that some players want to optimize, and not only is that an accepted game style but you, the DM, should make sure that you're helping the player have fun by making sure that they get new toys to play with and encounters where they can show off their optimization, and giving them things to do at times when they can't.But hey, since you claim they say "don't optimize," why don't you show it. Show us the passages that support this claim.Sure, some of them are cheating. But you really think they all are? And I've known people to come with under-average stats. In one of my games, we have a player who is fully and enjoyably RPing his 6 Wisdom. My friend had a 6th- or 7th-level bard with 19 hp because he deliberately dump-statted Con and also deliberately kept all the low rolls he got when he rolled for hp when leveling up. I'm enjoying my low-Int rogue with no Investigation proficiency, and the DM in another game let me shuffle some numbers around so I didn't have to have a warlock with a ton of high stats that yes, I legitimately rolled but didn't really want.So here: you can say that you've seen someone who in a forum who has under-average stats.But hey, maybe they're apologetic because people like you automatically assume that they're cheating.Every single one of your posts, including this one, has you looking down your nose at people. Like right now, where you're claiming that people are wrong in how they read the book, and that nobody is actually having real fun because they're optimizing.Did it ever occur to you that maybe other people have different types of fun? Or that some people don't have fun if their characters are failing rolls more than succeeding? Or that some people have fun RPing high stats as well as low or average ones? Or that some people have fun building the "best" character? Or that some people have fun by acting out particular character ideas, and to do that, they want to have a particular built? Funnily, I did read them again. You're very condescending and, as with this post, you assume that anyone who doesn't play your way isn't having real fun and isn't playing the game the way it was intended to.Guess what? I don't care what Gygax intended. Everything I've read about him, he's not a person I particularly would like to game with anyway, since I doubt I'd like his DMing style and I'm sure he'd hate my playing style. I also don't really care about what the designers of 5e intended, either.Again, learn to prove your assertions. Also, I once got a red-letter mod note for saying "learn to read" to someone, so maybe you should stop being so rude before you get one as well.Except for everything you have said on the topic. You keep claiming that all you're saying is "you don't have to optimize." But that's not what you're saying. Who is telling you to not talk about fun RP experiences with unoptimized characters? Who is telling you that not optimizing is bad or wrong or unfun? You're getting pushback because you're telling people that it's not OK for them to play they way they do.But you are repeatedly telling people that optimizing is "not recommended" and goes against the "intent" of the game.I have. That you disagree doesn't mean I'm ignorant.</blockquote>

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