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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Faolyn" data-source="post: 8498437" data-attributes="member: 6915329">That's not a rule. That's an intention, but not a rule. I never said there were rules that insisted on optimization. You're the one who keeps bringing that up.Finding your spell save DC by adding 8 + your spellcasting ability mod + your proficiency bonus is a rule. Showing that you should play a high-Strength race if you want to play a fighter is a guideline.Sure. For you, that's a bad form of optimization because for whatever reason, your enjoyment of the game is hindered.Do you understand that that's not the case for everyone else? Do you understand that many people can roleplay well and optimize and have fun at the same time?You mean the flavor text? You understand that flavor text is neither rules nor guidelines, right?Yes. And? That isn't a rule either. It's not even a guideline or intent. It's a reminder that you don't have to memorize every detail. It's a reminder that you don't have to optimize if you don't want to.Again, and? The DMG still lists optimizing as a perfectly valid gaming style.Or hey: prove that people can't create exciting and epic collaborative stories if they optimize. Prove that people can't have fun with their friends if they optimize.In other words, prove that the only way to have fun is to play it your preferred way.Your problem is that you are conflating chargen with the actual game. They're incredibly different things. You create your character before you play, and then modify it each time you level up. Character creation is not roleplaying. It's what you do before you roleplay. I've known people who've made very average, non-optimized characters and who do a crap job of roleplaying. I've known people who make very optimized characters and get very deep into roleplay.Also: nice insult there, saying that anyone who doesn't game your way must be some sort of basement-dweller. I own my own home, thank you. Gygax famously gamed in his basement.And again, it also says that optimization is a valid form of play.You are not the God of Gaming. It's not up to you to decide who is gaming in a valid manner or not.If the game is all about the epic storytelling and being with friends as you say, then why does a power gap matter to you?Or could it be that one of the problems here is you just don't other people to optimize because then they'd outshine you?Prove it.Have you considered the problem is actually caused by toxic players and not by optimization?And looking down on other players--not even characters, but players--is what you have been doing this entire time. This thread started about whether people like build optimization or play optimization. Your first post in the thread was a hostile attack on the entire notion.Why didn't you start a thread of your own talking about characters that weren't optimized at all, maybe posting tidbits from your game that showed how having a non-optimized character led to some fun, well-roleplayed moments? That would have been a great idea for a thread and hopefully it would have gone on for a long time.Instead, the first thing you did was attack.Where have I tried to dictate how people play the game? Show me what I said that tried to force a game style on anyone?My kalashtar fighter (adoptive mother to two of the other PCs), tiefling rogue (with the Int dump-stat and no Investigation), and firbolg warlock (who keeps trying to talk to animals but always forgets they can't understand the animal's responses) are all fun characters. And those were built with racial ASIs, so I didn't even get to "optimize" by putting the +2 where I wanted to.Since all my character sheets are digital, there's no point in showing you a sheet: a brand new sheet and one that's been used for eight levels look exactly the same.Dude, I quoted the if. And here you are ignoring the first part of your sentence: "That's the kind of stupid restrictions bought about by rules which prevent fun when playing."Way to deform your own sentences and lie about your own intent.Again: you have problems with toxicity players, not with the optimization yourself.You mean when I<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/playstyle-enjoyment-build-optimization-or-play-optimization.684938/#post-8495161" target="_blank"> actually quote you</a>?<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/playstyle-enjoyment-build-optimization-or-play-optimization.684938/page-3#post-8496032" target="_blank">Right here.</a> Also, throughout this post.Funny how when I quote you directly, you accuse me of putting words in your mouth. Maybe you need to reread what you write before you hit post; make sure you're actually writing what you mean to.Are you now claiming that that you never said that the game was intended to be played in a certain way? Or are you just trying to gaslight me?Yes. Here, from a reply to Umbran:"You will not get as good a result using an improvised tool as when you are using a tool designed to do what you need to do."Or this one, a reply to McGibster:Unless you're trying to claim that playing the game the way it isn't intended to be played is good...?BTW, which editions did you have less fun with? And what were you doing that went against its design intent? Because my friends and I have roleplayed while playing The Game of Life and had fun doing so. You can get a surprising amount of depth and character out of a little pink or blue peg.And while I haven't actually played 1e or 4e, I've read tons of 1e stuff and a small amount of 4e stuff and haven't found anything there that would make it unfun to RP.I haven't misquoted you once, nor have I ever lied.Talking about lying and misquoting: please show where I said you have to have that. What I've said is that the books emphasize typical race/class combos, based on a long history of restricting races to being certain classes. Go on. Quote me.Is it more or less biased that saying that the game "intends" people to not optimize?Why would I? I have repeatedly said I don't care about the game's intent, or about the intent of any of the designers.However, I do think it's odd that you would go so far away from the stated intent of both the game and the designers though. I guess you have no problem with ignoring the intent if it gets in the way of your fun, but don't want anyone else to do the same.But a troll paladin? Hella powerful though. All those paladin powers and regeneration? If this was really a character of yours, then you have zero business criticizing anyone for optimizing, min-maxing, or powergaming ever again. You've lost that privilege.Um, the DMG specifically says that aasimars are to be effective clerics and paladins. I quoted it. You have the DMG. Look up aasimars and see for yourself.Where did I say that you have to be effective or your a bad player? Or are you lying and misquoting me again? Funny, when I ask for you to prove the things you say about me, you refuse to show me the quotes.That's what the game "intended": for tieflings to lean in to their new heritage as creations of Asmodeus. While I don't own the 4e core books, <a href="https://dnd4.fandom.com/wiki/Tiefling" target="_blank">this 4e wiki</a> shows that most of the 4e tiefling feats emphasized that devilish origin. So, if you care about the game's "intent," then yes, you should play up a devilish tiefling.And since you talk so much about the game's intent, I have to assume that you do care about it.But the fact that you have had a fun-loving tiefling bard and a troll paladin shows that you don't care about the game's intent. You just want to look down on people who play differently than you do.</blockquote>

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