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Message: <blockquote data-quote="travathian" data-source="post: 6451046" data-attributes="member: 12105">You didn't have a bard, you had a triple classed character with some bard levels whose healing was nothing compared to an 18th level cleric.In a one off game with nothing but combat? Why not? Or play the cleric yourself, and just the other players make plot/progression decisions.I can't help but think you are jerking my chain at this point... the basic assumption for a party of 18th level characters is that they have no magic items?!? Yet a small farming town has a bunch? Where did you get this from? By the end of Lost Mines of Phandelver the party has magic items equivalent to your 18th level party . . ?Your point? It is a small pissant town, I expect them to have virtually no magical items.  Again, no competent 18th level wizard is going to fail to have fly available, either as a prepared spell or scroll or magic item. It is simply so versatile and useful. You can argue that not all mages need the same spells all you want, but show me an 18th level mage without the ability to fly and I question just how they survived to get to that level. Or how poor the DM is.Arcane gate? Why would an evoker have that prepared, and then not use it for the party to escape? Time stop you already said was cheese. And again, with both Time Stop and Arcane gate how can the party not escape . . ? Delayed blast fireball is terrible. Finger of death? Why not the infinitely useful teleport (another must have spell) or prismatic spray? And wands and scrolls and such don't make a mage or cleric more powerful any more so than plate mail +5 and a holy avenger makes a paladin more powerful. Are you seriously claiming that because the DMG isn't out yet that there is some default that characters don't have or will get magic items? Have you ever played D&D before? lol*yawn* Seriously? You are claiming you can show your work? Well <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />, I can show that a single skeleton can kill an army of 18th level characters. Lets see, army of 100 18th level warriors, walking across a rope bridge a mile long over a chasm a mile deep. Skeleton cuts rope. They all fall to their deaths. Yah! TPK, I showed my work. One skeleton = army of 18th level characters. Woohoo!</blockquote>

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