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[Playtest 2] HP thresholds
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<blockquote data-quote="Ellington" data-source="post: 5995122" data-attributes="member: 6692166"><p>I don't really think there has been enough discussion on the hp thresholds a lot of spells and abilities have in the playtest so far. I'm not a big fan of them as they're currently implemented, but in the interest of fairness let's look on some of the positives they provide.</p><p></p><p><strong>They're simple and speed up gameplay</strong></p><p></p><p>The hp thresholds are incredibly simple. Whether or not a creature is effected can be resolved with a simple yes/no question: "Is the creature's maximum HP X or lower?" There's no rolling, no adding or subtracting. It's either got a set amount of maximum HP or it doesn't.</p><p></p><p><strong>It makes players feel in control</strong></p><p></p><p>It can be incredibly infuriating for players to have their abilities foiled by a lucky saving throw of a creature much weaker than they are. Being able to reliably use spells such as Bane and Suggestion against weaker creatures without having them make saving throws makes you feel empowered and more ready to prepare those spells in the future.</p><p></p><p>So yeah, there are definitely some upsides to the HP thresholds as they currently are. But what about some of the downsides.</p><p></p><p><strong>It encourages metagaming</strong></p><p></p><p>"Hey, why don't you use suggestion against that minotaur?"</p><p>"Nah, man. Minotaurs have 52 HP. It won't work."</p><p></p><p>This is probably my biggest beef with the thresholds. It encourages players to memorize the HP of creatures to know exactly what works on what and what doesn't. And can you blame them? Wasting a valuable spell slot on a creature you have no way of determining the HP of without checking the book feels bad. Casting a mind affecting spell against a creature that has a high will save isn't a "bad" decision, it's just risky. After all, the creature might fail its saving throw. Casting a spell against a creature that has a higher maximum HP than the threshold of your spell is risky, but in another way. You're not tempting the luck of the die, you're tempting your knowledge of the creature's stats. Wasting a spell on a creature that exceeds your threshold isn't a risky decision: it's a <strong>wrong</strong> decision. </p><p></p><p><strong>It gives HP a role it shouldn't necessarily have</strong></p><p></p><p>Should your maximum hit points be a better defense against spells such as suggestion and charm person instead of your mental stats? Should a creature with low INT/WIS/CHA saves be immune to abilities that a creature of the same challenge rating with higher mental stats, but with a lower CON score, isn't? I don't know, but it doesn't feel right to me. HP isn't always an accurate assessment of a creature's power. Trolls (level 6 elite monsters) have less HP than gelatinous cubes (level 2 solo monsters) for instance. I don't think it should be a habit players should adopt when figuring out how powerful a creature is.</p><p></p><p>Moreover, your own HP can be the deciding factor in how effective your abilities are. The playtest warlock can gain an advantage on social skills against a creature with a lower max HP than the warlock. How does that make sense? Why is the effectiveness of this ability determined by your CON score instead of, say, your CHA score or even your primary attribute, your INT?</p><p></p><p>I can accept that HP thresholds aren't all bad, but as they're currently implemented I feel as if their negatives outweigh their positives. If they want a quick system such as this, they need to create a system that:</p><p></p><p>1) Measures a creature's overall power by its level or experience value instead of its HP value.</p><p>2) allows players to assess a monster's power without prior knowledge of the its stats. Perhaps the various lore skills could be used for this?</p><p></p><p>What say you?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ellington, post: 5995122, member: 6692166"] I don't really think there has been enough discussion on the hp thresholds a lot of spells and abilities have in the playtest so far. I'm not a big fan of them as they're currently implemented, but in the interest of fairness let's look on some of the positives they provide. [B]They're simple and speed up gameplay[/B] The hp thresholds are incredibly simple. Whether or not a creature is effected can be resolved with a simple yes/no question: "Is the creature's maximum HP X or lower?" There's no rolling, no adding or subtracting. It's either got a set amount of maximum HP or it doesn't. [B]It makes players feel in control[/B] It can be incredibly infuriating for players to have their abilities foiled by a lucky saving throw of a creature much weaker than they are. Being able to reliably use spells such as Bane and Suggestion against weaker creatures without having them make saving throws makes you feel empowered and more ready to prepare those spells in the future. So yeah, there are definitely some upsides to the HP thresholds as they currently are. But what about some of the downsides. [B]It encourages metagaming[/B] "Hey, why don't you use suggestion against that minotaur?" "Nah, man. Minotaurs have 52 HP. It won't work." This is probably my biggest beef with the thresholds. It encourages players to memorize the HP of creatures to know exactly what works on what and what doesn't. And can you blame them? Wasting a valuable spell slot on a creature you have no way of determining the HP of without checking the book feels bad. Casting a mind affecting spell against a creature that has a high will save isn't a "bad" decision, it's just risky. After all, the creature might fail its saving throw. Casting a spell against a creature that has a higher maximum HP than the threshold of your spell is risky, but in another way. You're not tempting the luck of the die, you're tempting your knowledge of the creature's stats. Wasting a spell on a creature that exceeds your threshold isn't a risky decision: it's a [b]wrong[/b] decision. [b]It gives HP a role it shouldn't necessarily have[/b] Should your maximum hit points be a better defense against spells such as suggestion and charm person instead of your mental stats? Should a creature with low INT/WIS/CHA saves be immune to abilities that a creature of the same challenge rating with higher mental stats, but with a lower CON score, isn't? I don't know, but it doesn't feel right to me. HP isn't always an accurate assessment of a creature's power. Trolls (level 6 elite monsters) have less HP than gelatinous cubes (level 2 solo monsters) for instance. I don't think it should be a habit players should adopt when figuring out how powerful a creature is. Moreover, your own HP can be the deciding factor in how effective your abilities are. The playtest warlock can gain an advantage on social skills against a creature with a lower max HP than the warlock. How does that make sense? Why is the effectiveness of this ability determined by your CON score instead of, say, your CHA score or even your primary attribute, your INT? I can accept that HP thresholds aren't all bad, but as they're currently implemented I feel as if their negatives outweigh their positives. If they want a quick system such as this, they need to create a system that: 1) Measures a creature's overall power by its level or experience value instead of its HP value. 2) allows players to assess a monster's power without prior knowledge of the its stats. Perhaps the various lore skills could be used for this? What say you? [/QUOTE]
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