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<blockquote data-quote="Falling Icicle" data-source="post: 5990612" data-attributes="member: 17077">Most of the save-or-suck spells are raising big red flags. Command allows no saving throw if your max hp are less than 30. Charm person allows no saving throw if your max hp are less than 25. Ray of Enfeeblement minimizes your damage with no saving throw if your max hp are less than 25. Sleep has no saving throw at all if its &quot;damage&quot; is enough to &quot;kill&quot; you.Such effects should never, ever screw you over without an attack roll or saving throw, no matter how low your maximum HP happen to be, IMO. These spells are not only easy to abuse on monsters and NPCs, PCs can be victims of them too. One of the goals of this edition is supposed to be flatter math, and one of the big reasons for that is so that people the PCs regularly interact with, but wouldn't be high level adventurers themselves, can be relevant. The king may only be 1st level, but his stats are in the same realm as yours. But what does that matter if the wizard can effortlessly charm him, with no saving throw allowed, just because he doesnt have 25+ max hp?I am not at all a fan of this power-word-like hp threshold mechanic they have become so fond of using. Like many of the spells of the past that had HD limits, they end up being overpowered at the levels that they're relevant and then become useless later. I also dislike it from the player side of things because you have no way of knowing (without sneaking a peak at the monster manual or something like that) how many hp a creature has. I hate wasting spells to no effect because of stupid mechanics like that.So, in short, I think this hp threshold mechanic is awful in alot of ways.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Falling Icicle, post: 5990612, member: 17077"] Most of the save-or-suck spells are raising big red flags. Command allows no saving throw if your max hp are less than 30. Charm person allows no saving throw if your max hp are less than 25. Ray of Enfeeblement minimizes your damage with no saving throw if your max hp are less than 25. Sleep has no saving throw at all if its "damage" is enough to "kill" you. Such effects should never, ever screw you over without an attack roll or saving throw, no matter how low your maximum HP happen to be, IMO. These spells are not only easy to abuse on monsters and NPCs, PCs can be victims of them too. One of the goals of this edition is supposed to be flatter math, and one of the big reasons for that is so that people the PCs regularly interact with, but wouldn't be high level adventurers themselves, can be relevant. The king may only be 1st level, but his stats are in the same realm as yours. But what does that matter if the wizard can effortlessly charm him, with no saving throw allowed, just because he doesnt have 25+ max hp? I am not at all a fan of this power-word-like hp threshold mechanic they have become so fond of using. Like many of the spells of the past that had HD limits, they end up being overpowered at the levels that they're relevant and then become useless later. I also dislike it from the player side of things because you have no way of knowing (without sneaking a peak at the monster manual or something like that) how many hp a creature has. I hate wasting spells to no effect because of stupid mechanics like that. So, in short, I think this hp threshold mechanic is awful in alot of ways. [/QUOTE]

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