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<blockquote data-quote="Yaarel" data-source="post: 9067676" data-attributes="member: 58172"><p>Hence, the detailed response.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are logical person. You can determine this for yourself.</p><p></p><p>The Astral Sea is a "silvery void". The Wildspace is a place that has a star system.</p><p></p><p>How do you need me to logically conclude that the Astral Sea itself lacks stars?</p><p></p><p>The Wildspaces have stars. The Astral Sea is void of them.</p><p></p><p>This is self-evident, axiomatic, logic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Astral Sea is nonidentical with the outer space of the Material Plane.</p><p></p><p>The Astral Sea has a silvery haze. The outer space of the Material Plane doenst.</p><p></p><p>The Astral Plane and the Material Plane are separate planes of existence.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to think the Astral Plane and the Material Plane are the same thing?</p><p></p><p>They arent.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If a character is in the Astral Plane, in the Wildspace of it, the character can observe the Material Plane.</p><p></p><p>That is what it means when it says the Wildspace (which is part of the Astral Plane) overlaps the Material Plane.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I appreciate that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Re a spelljammer that planeshifts from the Material Plane into the Wildspace of the Astral Plane.</p><p></p><p>It cannot fly thru a planet, because this part of the Astral Plane itself simulates matter. Thus the Astral virtual ship would virtually crash into the Astral virtual planet.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The references to "virtual reality" and "augmented reality" where virtual constructs superimpose over reallife things are helpful analogies to understand what is going on here in D&D.</p><p></p><p>The point is, in D&D in the Astral Plane, things are made out of "thought". They arent made out of matter. That is why the analogy of "virtual reality" and "information theory" are useful here.</p><p></p><p>The Astral Plane is a realm of thought − including archetypes, ideals, ethics, symbols, concepts, language, patterns, math, dreams, and so on − in other words a mode of existence that is made out of information.</p><p></p><p>These ideas, these patterns, these "words of creation", are the Astral thoughts that function like a blueprint for the creation of the rest of the multiverse. They exist as information. The creation of matter comes later, and elsewhere, in an different plane of existence, according to the Astral "words".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not sure where you are going with these finer points.</p><p></p><p>The context of the citation refers to the Wildspace where the vacuum of space as well as meteors, a planet, and so on, can be found.</p><p></p><p>The Wildspace overlaps an entire star system, such as a sun and the planets orbiting around it. It is possible to fly from one planet to an other within a Wildspace. (It is also possible to teleport from one planet to an other within a Wildspace.) The references to objects big enough to have its own gravitational pull including to pull air around it, refers to traveling between planets, and similar within a star system. It is making a reasonably straightforward point that, when one is on the surface of a planet, one doesnt run out of air. The air of a planet is self-sustaining and (its oxygen) is self-replenishing.</p><p></p><p>The speed of a spelljammer in a Wildspace is sensitive to nearby gravitational sources. (The gamist reason for this design is to allow the DM to force an encounter, such as a spelljammer of Vampires forcing the spelljammer that the player characters are on to slow down, thus allowing the Vampires to attack them. Thus spelljammers can force each other to slow down and encounter each other. The flavor reason is sensitivity to each others gravity.) Meanwhile, the description explicitly says not to worry about crashing into space debris when the spelljammer is traveling at extremely high speeds.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not sure where you are going with this.</p><p></p><p>But, the description explicitly says, "The spelljamming ship automatically slows ... when close to ... a planet." So, interacting with a planet while in the Astral Plane, is virtually identical to interacting with a planet while in the Material Plane. (Namely, the normal game rules apply.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, unlike the Astral Sea, the Astral Wildspace closely overlaps the Material Plane and behaves accordingly. Thus, while in the "air envelope" of a planet, one can breathe normally, but if in outer space between planets, one must have a source of air, just like one would in the Material Plane.</p><p></p><p>The environment changes when exiting the influence of the Material Plane and entering the Astral Sea.</p><p></p><p>In the Astral Sea there is virtual air. "But is the air real, or does this heavnely realm merely trick creatures into thinking they're breathing?" The air of the Astral Plane is made out of thought and dream.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I already addressed this earlier. In the Wildspace, the thought stuff of the Astral Plane behaves as if matter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is virtually physical. The Wildspace is still "thought and dream".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not quite.</p><p></p><p>Within one star system, the Wildspace simulates the information of the sun, planets, and so on. Likewise the empty space between the sun and the planets is also simulated.</p><p></p><p>However, in the Material Plane, there can be one star system with a planet (such as Toril), and there can be an other galaxy far, far, away, with a different star system with a different planet (perhaps such as Oerth). The emptiness of outer space between star systems is bleak empty space in the Material Plane − there is nothing magical about this − it is empty − with cosmic radiation and so on. The star systems are extremely far away from each other.</p><p></p><p>The trick to reaching these other star systems is by exiting the limitations of the Material Plane and entering Plane of thought and dream, where one can travel via "spiritual state" instead of mundane distances.</p><p></p><p>The Astral Sea is a silvery haze. This silvery haze cannot be seen in the Material Plane. In the Material Plane, one just sees emptiness between one star system and an other.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly. This "ocean" is the Astral Sea of thought and dream.</p><p></p><p>Within this thoughtscape, each Wildspace is like a bubble. Within the thoughtscape, the distances between these bubbles are unfixed, sometimes two star systems might be dreamt to be very close to each other, sometimes the two might be dreamt to be very far from each other. There is no constancy.</p><p></p><p>"Wildspace systems aren't fixed in certain locations in the multiverse. Because they are constantly in motion, like corks bobbing in water, no reliable devices exist to help plot a course from one Wildspace system to an other."</p><p></p><p>But in the Material Plane the distances between star systems are constant. In the Material Plane, one can plainly see a star system far far away, and in principle, travel in a straight line toward it. But this isnt the case in the dreamscape of the Astral Plane, where this star system in its bubble might be anywhere at any distance.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Wildspace never ceases to be the Astral Plane.</p><p></p><p>The Astral Plane and the Material Plane are not the same thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The spelljammer ship can exist in the Material Plane. But it can never reach an other far away star system if remaining in the Material Plane. "A ship that wants to travel from one Wildspace system to an other must cross the Astral Sea" ("unless it has some other magical means of traveling from one world in the multiverse to an other").</p><p></p><p>The spelljammer travels magically, thru the Astral Plane magically, thru its Astral Sea, where it becomes possible to reach destinations whose Material distances are otherwise impracticable.</p><p></p><p>It is kinda like going into "hyperspace" because actual Material space is too far away.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Simply entering the Astral Plane, from the Material Plane, is a planeshift.</p><p></p><p>Relatedly, if there is a place in the Material Plane where the "veil is thin" between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane, then to simply walk thru threshold is a planeshift from the Material into the Ethereal.</p><p></p><p>To shift from any Plane of existence to any other Plane of existence is a planeshift.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Yaarel, post: 9067676, member: 58172"] Hence, the detailed response. You are logical person. You can determine this for yourself. The Astral Sea is a "silvery void". The Wildspace is a place that has a star system. How do you need me to logically conclude that the Astral Sea itself lacks stars? The Wildspaces have stars. The Astral Sea is void of them. This is self-evident, axiomatic, logic. The Astral Sea is nonidentical with the outer space of the Material Plane. The Astral Sea has a silvery haze. The outer space of the Material Plane doenst. The Astral Plane and the Material Plane are separate planes of existence. You seem to think the Astral Plane and the Material Plane are the same thing? They arent. If a character is in the Astral Plane, in the Wildspace of it, the character can observe the Material Plane. That is what it means when it says the Wildspace (which is part of the Astral Plane) overlaps the Material Plane. I appreciate that. Re a spelljammer that planeshifts from the Material Plane into the Wildspace of the Astral Plane. It cannot fly thru a planet, because this part of the Astral Plane itself simulates matter. Thus the Astral virtual ship would virtually crash into the Astral virtual planet. The references to "virtual reality" and "augmented reality" where virtual constructs superimpose over reallife things are helpful analogies to understand what is going on here in D&D. The point is, in D&D in the Astral Plane, things are made out of "thought". They arent made out of matter. That is why the analogy of "virtual reality" and "information theory" are useful here. The Astral Plane is a realm of thought − including archetypes, ideals, ethics, symbols, concepts, language, patterns, math, dreams, and so on − in other words a mode of existence that is made out of information. These ideas, these patterns, these "words of creation", are the Astral thoughts that function like a blueprint for the creation of the rest of the multiverse. They exist as information. The creation of matter comes later, and elsewhere, in an different plane of existence, according to the Astral "words". Not sure where you are going with these finer points. The context of the citation refers to the Wildspace where the vacuum of space as well as meteors, a planet, and so on, can be found. The Wildspace overlaps an entire star system, such as a sun and the planets orbiting around it. It is possible to fly from one planet to an other within a Wildspace. (It is also possible to teleport from one planet to an other within a Wildspace.) The references to objects big enough to have its own gravitational pull including to pull air around it, refers to traveling between planets, and similar within a star system. It is making a reasonably straightforward point that, when one is on the surface of a planet, one doesnt run out of air. The air of a planet is self-sustaining and (its oxygen) is self-replenishing. The speed of a spelljammer in a Wildspace is sensitive to nearby gravitational sources. (The gamist reason for this design is to allow the DM to force an encounter, such as a spelljammer of Vampires forcing the spelljammer that the player characters are on to slow down, thus allowing the Vampires to attack them. Thus spelljammers can force each other to slow down and encounter each other. The flavor reason is sensitivity to each others gravity.) Meanwhile, the description explicitly says not to worry about crashing into space debris when the spelljammer is traveling at extremely high speeds. Not sure where you are going with this. But, the description explicitly says, "The spelljamming ship automatically slows ... when close to ... a planet." So, interacting with a planet while in the Astral Plane, is virtually identical to interacting with a planet while in the Material Plane. (Namely, the normal game rules apply.) Again, unlike the Astral Sea, the Astral Wildspace closely overlaps the Material Plane and behaves accordingly. Thus, while in the "air envelope" of a planet, one can breathe normally, but if in outer space between planets, one must have a source of air, just like one would in the Material Plane. The environment changes when exiting the influence of the Material Plane and entering the Astral Sea. In the Astral Sea there is virtual air. "But is the air real, or does this heavnely realm merely trick creatures into thinking they're breathing?" The air of the Astral Plane is made out of thought and dream. I already addressed this earlier. In the Wildspace, the thought stuff of the Astral Plane behaves as if matter. It is virtually physical. The Wildspace is still "thought and dream". Not quite. Within one star system, the Wildspace simulates the information of the sun, planets, and so on. Likewise the empty space between the sun and the planets is also simulated. However, in the Material Plane, there can be one star system with a planet (such as Toril), and there can be an other galaxy far, far, away, with a different star system with a different planet (perhaps such as Oerth). The emptiness of outer space between star systems is bleak empty space in the Material Plane − there is nothing magical about this − it is empty − with cosmic radiation and so on. The star systems are extremely far away from each other. The trick to reaching these other star systems is by exiting the limitations of the Material Plane and entering Plane of thought and dream, where one can travel via "spiritual state" instead of mundane distances. The Astral Sea is a silvery haze. This silvery haze cannot be seen in the Material Plane. In the Material Plane, one just sees emptiness between one star system and an other. Exactly. This "ocean" is the Astral Sea of thought and dream. Within this thoughtscape, each Wildspace is like a bubble. Within the thoughtscape, the distances between these bubbles are unfixed, sometimes two star systems might be dreamt to be very close to each other, sometimes the two might be dreamt to be very far from each other. There is no constancy. "Wildspace systems aren't fixed in certain locations in the multiverse. Because they are constantly in motion, like corks bobbing in water, no reliable devices exist to help plot a course from one Wildspace system to an other." But in the Material Plane the distances between star systems are constant. In the Material Plane, one can plainly see a star system far far away, and in principle, travel in a straight line toward it. But this isnt the case in the dreamscape of the Astral Plane, where this star system in its bubble might be anywhere at any distance. The Wildspace never ceases to be the Astral Plane. The Astral Plane and the Material Plane are not the same thing. The spelljammer ship can exist in the Material Plane. But it can never reach an other far away star system if remaining in the Material Plane. "A ship that wants to travel from one Wildspace system to an other must cross the Astral Sea" ("unless it has some other magical means of traveling from one world in the multiverse to an other"). The spelljammer travels magically, thru the Astral Plane magically, thru its Astral Sea, where it becomes possible to reach destinations whose Material distances are otherwise impracticable. It is kinda like going into "hyperspace" because actual Material space is too far away. Simply entering the Astral Plane, from the Material Plane, is a planeshift. Relatedly, if there is a place in the Material Plane where the "veil is thin" between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane, then to simply walk thru threshold is a planeshift from the Material into the Ethereal. To shift from any Plane of existence to any other Plane of existence is a planeshift. [/QUOTE]
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