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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9057054" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I had missed that you can't use your martial arts die with weapons. That nerfs them even more.Well... no actually. To trip, shove or grapple the enemy needs to fail a saving throw, the DC of which is 8+STRENGTH MOD+Prof. There isn't a monk alive that is going to have a positive strength modifier unless they had god-like rolls. They need Dex, Cha AND Con first. So, in reality, they are the ONLY people using unarmed strikes that CAN'T trip, shove or grapple with them. //////////////////////////////////////////And sadly.... is this just almost all nerfs? 1st level -> You get weapon masteries like everyone else, but flex is useless to you and you can't increase damage die, so you are mostly getting slow, vex or sap unless you want to deal 2d4+mod with nick. 2nd level -> Step of the wind is buffed, but that's it. No other changes. 3rd -> Deflect missiles is mostly the same. The damage seems higher, but it isn't actually. The old one was an attack with a monk weapon, so it would do, for example, 1d8+4 with the martial arts die. Now it is a save versus 2d8. The range is more reliable, you can throw within 60 ft, but it is save for zero. 4th -> Slow fall is the same5th -> Stunning strike is nerfed to once per turn6th -> Empowered strikes basically the same7th -> Evasion the same, but you do now get Metabolism which can be good for quick recovery9th -> Acrobatic movement is the same10th -> you lose immunity to poison damage, but can end poison, fear or charm as a bonus action.... but there is a fundamental problem still unaddressed. You have to know you are charmed, and you have to be capable of a bonus action. A monk hit with Dominate Person can't take an action their controller doesn't allow... so you can't end the charm effect. It is a really fundamental problem with Stillness of Mind13th -> Deflect energy is neat I guess, but real late14th -> Diamond soul is unchanged15th -> Perfect Discipline was their 20th capstone... so I guess this is better. 18th -> Empty body is nerfed20 -> Defy Death is neat, but expensive. And this kind of continues through the subclasses. Open Hands 3rd level ability was essentially nerfed by adding the con save to the no reactions. And is otherwise unchanged. Wholeness is nerfed because of the cost. Shadow monk is largely the same. Loses Opportunist and gets somethings for free. It becomes very one note with the shadow teleport, and Cloak is very good, but VERY risky since ever being in bright light blows it. Elemental is better, but the cantrip is useless (entirely useless it feels like) but most of the abilities are just decent. Monks needed a really big boost... and they actually recieved more nerfs than anything else? Except, Monks are focusing even more on high tier mobility. Open hand gets forever free bonus dash+disengage. Elements gets flight and Destructive stride for damage while moving. Shadow is all teleport all the time. But without more ways to attack or control, the monk can't utilize this mobility.</blockquote>

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