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<blockquote data-quote="Clint_L" data-source="post: 9057654" data-attributes="member: 7035894">Over two rounds, the lvl 17 Hand monk can do 8d12+40 damage at a cost of 2 di total with regular attacks plus flurry of blows, or (4d12+20) + (10d12+17/save for half) at a cost of 5 di total by using quivering palm. But at this point di is basically free, so I hardly factor that in. So quivering palm is definitely good; it's just way less good than it was. And I agree that the current iteration is extremely powerful but...man, it takes 17 levels to finally get a genuinely scary ability, so for most monks it's just not relevant.I dunno...it just seems weird that we all expected monks to get a big boost but the nerfs seem as prominent as the buffs.Also...looking at those high levels attacks makes me think: doesn't the lack of mastery on unarmed strikes amount to a nerf that grows as the monk levels up, and compound with the stealth nerf from the fact that so few magic items benefit monk attacks? By the time they get to d12 unarmed strikes the monk will want to use them for most or all attacks, but that would mean no free mastery benefits at all.I think high level monks are significantly weaker now, in comparison to other martials. But they can move around great. As can a lot of other classes at high levels.To me, compared to other 2024 classes, monks have gone from &quot;meh&quot; to &quot;meh.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Clint_L, post: 9057654, member: 7035894"] Over two rounds, the lvl 17 Hand monk can do 8d12+40 damage at a cost of 2 di total with regular attacks plus flurry of blows, or (4d12+20) + (10d12+17/save for half) at a cost of 5 di total by using quivering palm. But at this point di is basically free, so I hardly factor that in. So quivering palm is definitely good; it's just way less good than it was. And I agree that the current iteration is extremely powerful but...man, it takes 17 levels to finally get a genuinely scary ability, so for most monks it's just not relevant. I dunno...it just seems weird that we all expected monks to get a big boost but the nerfs seem as prominent as the buffs. Also...looking at those high levels attacks makes me think: doesn't the lack of mastery on unarmed strikes amount to a nerf that grows as the monk levels up, and compound with the stealth nerf from the fact that so few magic items benefit monk attacks? By the time they get to d12 unarmed strikes the monk will want to use them for most or all attacks, but that would mean no free mastery benefits at all. I think high level monks are significantly weaker now, in comparison to other martials. But they can move around great. As can a lot of other classes at high levels. To me, compared to other 2024 classes, monks have gone from "meh" to "meh." [/QUOTE]

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