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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Clint_L" data-source="post: 9060487" data-attributes="member: 7035894">Do they?Level 3 berserker barbarian does 24 damage and hits more often due to reckless attacks, while still tanking considerably better than any monk. More if there's a cleave opportunity. That's better than any monk subclass can do (15.5); even with FoB the best monk gets to 22, I believe. But let's leave subclasses out of it, so no need to look at how badly an echo knight would crush any monk subclass, etc.So, just looking at the base classes, even with just a single attack any barbarian is hitting for a base average of 12, but much more often than the monk due to advantage, while tanking better than the monk. For example, against an orc, a baseline level 3 barbarian with a single attack, reckless, hits for just under 10.1DPR, and survives for 9 rounds.Against that same orc, any level 3 monk using an axe, dagger, and martial arts hits for just over 10 DPR and survives for 5 rounds. So the monk actually does need FoB to pull ahead in offence...for three rounds.Okay, so maybe not barbarians. Base paladin at level 3 does lag behind the monk, with neither using special attacks, but only by 2 DPR. However, they also crush the monk for survivability - they trade a small amount of offence for almost triple the longevity. (If we do allow for FoB, then that opens the door to smite, and the paladin's DPR crushes the monks) - Edit: no it doesn't - did the math; monk still edges out paladin.Fighter, assuming duelling and flex, lags the monk by just 1 DPR or so, but has survivability similar to the paladin.Generic level 3 rogue with, say, rapier and dagger is doing 17 DPR, so the monk is losing that match-up without using FoB, which lets them pull ahead for three rounds. Survivability traits are basically the same...though with cunning action as a baseline ability, the rogue will be able to avoid far more attacks, since our monk needs to use their bonus action for an unarmed strike.So unless I am missing something, the baseline monk has about the same DPR at level 3 compared to a baseline barbarian, a bit more than a paladin or fighter, and a bit less than a rogue. But it's all pretty close, so...a good bit more damage? I'm not seeing it.</blockquote>

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