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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Clint_L" data-source="post: 9069334" data-attributes="member: 7035894">My take on the updated sub-classes:Warrior of ShadowLevel 3: BUFF, with caveats. Losing Pass without Trace really sucks, because monks don't have a lot of out of combat options that help the whole party, and PwT is one of the best. However, getting Darkness for only 1 di point is better, PLUS you can move it, and flat out gaining darkvision is necessary to the class. This puts the pieces in place that the Shadow monk can build on later (similar to how Mercy monk also builds on its level three abilities).Level 6: BUFF. This just works so much better with the level 3 abilities, making the Shadow monk a battlefield opportunist on par with an Echo Knight.Level 11: BUFF. This continues the trend by building on the previous ability, whereas the old Cloak of Shadows was just kind of clunky and pointless.Level 17: BUFF: The old capstone really had nothing to do with the subclass's theme. This one makes you into a combination of Kitty Pryde and Batman, more or less, which is super cool.Overall, Way of Shadow works really well, and if the base class is improved could be almost as good as Mercy monk.Warrior of the ElementsLevel 3: BUFF (but still not great). It's a buff because the old version of this subclass is terrible so anything is an improvement. The cantrip is more or less a wash - slightly different but who cares? Being able to change your damage type to fire/cold/acid/lightning is basically a gimmick that will seldom do much, but I like the flavour. Being able to move the target up to 10' on a failed save is okay, though other classes have stronger versions of this (c.f. warlock). The extended reach is nice. There should be a small damage buff added.Level 6: BUFF???. Again, this is better than the previous version but still not great. 2 di (a third of your pool when you get this ability) to do a 3d8 (scaling) AoE at range is kind of underwhelming when wizards are casting fireballs for a smaller share of their resources at this level. But the potential is there - what if the damage instead became 2 martial arts dice PER di spent, maybe up to a maximum of your proficiency bonus? That would get it there.Level 11: BUFF. This is great, and fits the subclass fantasy really well.Level 17: BUFF. Cool - possibly a bit underpowered for a capstone, but again the flavour is on point.Overall, Warrior of the Elements is totally different, much more thematically cohesive, and almost good. It just needs a bit of fine tuning.Warrior of the HandLevel 3: NERF. It's the same as before (i.e. weak)...except now they've added a saving throw to "addled." WTF? It already sucked, but you could think of situations where you might use it in coordination with a teammate. Now it is completely pointless. All of these should be baseline to the monk as their version of weapon mastery for unarmed strikes.Level 6: NERF. Both versions of this suck, but I will argue that the new version sucks harder. The old version used your action but didn't cost resources and gave you a decent heal - 3x monk level. The new version costs a bonus action AND a di point but gives you a much worse heal, though you can use it more often, as many times as your wisdom modifier per long rest (but you shouldn't because the action economy on it is TERRIBLE).This ability is particularly bad when you look at it in the context of a Mercy monk's level 6 ability: they can do the exact same heal as often as they have ki/di points, and they can do it to whoever they want, not just themselves. And on top of the heal can also remove one condition from the target:  blinded, deafened, poisoned, paralyzed, or stunned. OR they can instead choose to do that same amount of necrotic damage to their target, succeeding automatically, and inflict the poisoned condition with no save, which is an amazing debuff. Oh, and they get it as part of their flurry of blows, meaning they keep the initial unarmed strike, which Warrior of the Hand has to sacrifice to get their crappy little heal.How did WotC look at the Mercy monk ability and then decide to give this garbage can version of it to Warrior of the Hand? It boggles the mind.Level 11: BUFF. But it's not great - it lets you use Step of the Wind without spending di points...which is how Step of the Wind should work for all monks, baseline. However, the old tranquility ability was such trash that anything is an improvement.Level 17: NERF. This is a straight damage nerf to what is currently a horribly designed ability, Quivering Palm.The old version of this ability sounded great but was really not. The reality is that the BBEG almost never died to this, because of high saving throws, legendary resistances, etc., so in actuality you were spending two turns to do 55 points of damage, which at level 17+ is pretty unimpressive. However, if you ever did manage to use it to take out a BBEG, then it was stupidly broken. So either way, someone felt bad - usually the monk because it almost never delivered on its promise, but on rare occasions the DM because their final battle got ruined.This new version avoids setting anyone up for failed expectations but also is significantly nerfed. The old version had a damage range of 55-infinity. The new one has a damage range of 41-82 (averages, in both cases). Probably your target saves or resists at this level so...it's not that much better than just attacking, especially when you factor in the extra cost to use it (a level 17 monk has base damage of 4D12+20, or 46).Overall, Warrior of the Hand is terrible and should be completely scrapped. Start over, WotC.Warrior of MercyUnchanged from Tasha's, and therefore still the best monk sub-class. Dodged a bullet!</blockquote>

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