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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mirrorrorrim" data-source="post: 9070410" data-attributes="member: 7040132">I used "hyper-optimization" because I believe the average table already seeks some sort of "basic effectiveness," where many player make choices they feel makes them comptent or effective. And if they don't feel effective, that is a feelbad when it leads to failure. You make it sound like that is "optimization" and I don't consider that "optimization" so, I used a different word. My bad if that came off wrong. I think you and I just define it differently.When something is twice as good as something else (1d6 v. 1d12), that is not "optimization" so much as a common sense choice. Generally, fighters don't use 1d4 daggers as a main weapon over 1d8 longswords, and that is two die steps. There are 3 die steps between 1d6 and 1d12. That is an even greater disparity. Taking that into consideration, the parallel I am drawing between Monks of the 4 Elements and Monks with Greataxes is way more simple than how you are characterizing it. It's about obvious effectiveness, not reasons why they have different levels of effectiveness. It doesn't matter why, only that there is an obvious discrepancy that leads to an imbalance between choices.To be honest, I think that Weapon Mastery is tossing a complication into the gearworks of the monk. I like when monk weapons did the same damage as unarmed strikes. Super simple and the monk could use daggers or staves and be just as competent either way. However, Weapon Mastery is for weapons and unarmed strikes are not weapons, which means unarmed strikes would be purely worse than weapons. Maybe we need something special created for the monk called "Unarmed Strike Mastery" which mirrors Weapon Mastery a bit. Take the bit from the Way of the Hand, give it to the base monk, and give something a bit heftier for Way of the Hand. That way, monks can deal their unarmed damage no matter the weapon they are using.I STILL do not want Hand and Shadow monks all using great weapons because that is not the theme for those archetypes. Great Weapons can be made available via a subclass that a monk can opt into.You say that not everyone will make that choice. It's not about there being some who have no problem making obviously worse choices. It's about theme and identity for me. Right now UA Paladins don't have ranged smites, because of feedback about theme and identity. Should a rogue be able to sneak attack with a greataxe? I say no. (I'd be fine if they could sneak attack with clubs/saps, though.)</blockquote>

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