D&D 5E Please critique my firearm rules

[eamon]

I'm intending to run a 5e game based on the ZEITGEIST adventure path. Firearms are a significant part of Zeitgeist's flavor, but 5e has no published firearm rules so far.

My aim with these rules is to make firearms slightly (but noticably) more powerful than other ranged options, balanced by the fact that they're too impractical to reload in combat, and too expensive to be pervasive. Hopefully, this will mean that well-equipped people use firearms, but only as an opening salvo. I might work with a PC that wants to use them full-time, but that's not the aim of these rules.

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EDIT: I've updated these rules based on the feedback I've received; v2 is posted in #7.

Firearms are muzzle-loaded; (re)loading requires an action.
Firearm expert feat: +1Dex, reload free 1/turn.

[TABLE="width: 100%"] [TR] [TD]Name[/TD] [TD]Damage[/TD] [TD]Range[/TD] [TD]Price[/TD] [TD]Weight[/TD] [TD]Properties[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]Simple[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Pistol[/TD] [TD]1d8[/TD] [TD]30/120[/TD] [TD]50gp[/TD] [TD]2lb[/TD] [TD]light[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Target Pistol[/TD] [TD]1d8[/TD] [TD]40/160/800[/TD] [TD]400gp[/TD] [TD]2lb[/TD] [TD]light, rifled, rare[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Carbine[/TD] [TD]1d10[/TD] [TD]90/360[/TD] [TD]50gp[/TD] [TD]5lb[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Rifle-Carbine[/TD] [TD]1d10[/TD] [TD]100/400/2000[/TD] [TD]500gp[/TD] [TD]5lb[/TD] [TD]rifled, rare[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Shotgun[/TD] [TD]1d10[/TD] [TD]30/120[/TD] [TD]100gp[/TD] [TD]5lb[/TD] [TD]scatter, rare[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]Martial[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Musket[/TD] [TD]1d12[/TD] [TD]100/400[/TD] [TD]60gp[/TD] [TD]10lb[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Rifle-musket[/TD] [TD]1d12[/TD] [TD]110/440/2200[/TD] [TD]600gp[/TD] [TD]10lb[/TD] [TD]rifled[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Rifled: Rifled weapons can accurately shoot at extreme range. To make a shot at extreme range (3rd number in the range column), you must aim at the target as an action. You can maintain your aim as a bonus action. You lose your aim when you move or take damage. While aiming, you can attack the target with disadvantage and a -2 penalty. An expert gunsmith can sometimes attach a spyglass to such a weapon; a well-aligned spyglass removes the -2 penalty (but not the disadvantage). When aiming through a spyglass you cannot see anything that is not directly in line with the target.

Rare: Requisitioning rare items is hard (the favor level increases by 1 - zeitgeist rule)

Scatter: Scatter weapons have advantage at close range. Furthermore, when you roll two dice due to the advantage and both hit, increase the damage roll by one die (e.g. 1d10 becomes 2d10).


What do you think?

 

[eamon]

Whoops, it looks like this belongs in the house rules section. Can somebody move this, perhaps?

 

[ccooke]

So, a few things that I don't think are really 5e-like:

1) reload-with-an-action should probably be a trait applied to the item - "Muzzle-loading", say.
2) Rather than a firearm expert feat, I'd go with a martial fighting style with just the reload 1/turn free, available to any martial class as usual
3) You've missed the "two-handed" trait on muskets and rifles

And some more general things:

1) I think you have too many of these in the "simple" weapons category. It all depends, though, on what sort of technology level you're going for - you seem to have a bit of a mix. In particular, though, you have only two-handed guns in the martial section.
2) Note that firing a gun makes a very loud noise
3) You need prices for powder and bullets, and tools for making more bullets

On a completely unrelated note:

1) I really prefer being hit by a gun to be deadly. Something along the lines of: On a critical hit, the target must make a DC15 Con save or drop to 0 hit points immediately. But that probably doesn't fit your needs

 

[Morrus]

S

1) I really prefer being hit by a gun to be deadly. Something along the lines of: On a critical hit, the target must make a DC15 Con save or drop to 0 hit points immediately. But that probably doesn't fit your needs

Being stabbed in the face by a sword is pretty deadly, too!

 

[ccooke]

Being stabbed in the face by a sword is pretty deadly, too!

Absolutely true, and I did say it's a different feel from the one the OP wanted. I was tangenting a little because I (personally) like the "guns do serious damage" setting better.
As justification for this (personal) preference, the difference between a hit and a miss with a gun is much wider - a sword can make contact without doing a huge amount of damage - it can leave a bruise, shallow cuts, clang off armour or whatever.
A bullet - at least, one from a firearm from around the 1800s on - is vastly more likely (if it hits) to leave you with a major wound than a nick.

 

[Leatherhead]

A general rule of thumb, if gun rules are more cumbersome than crossbow rules, they are too cumbersome.
This is especially true of reloading and damage rules.

I would make reloading a bonus action, if I had to do it at all. Perhaps upping the tech level to copper-capped cartridges would ease things, it is the pseudo-industrial revolution after all.

As it stands, these guns (save for the rifles when used at extreme range) are unattractive options for PCs to use due to the one attack every other round rule. At level 4, most of the classes who do weapon attacks are already getting 2 a round, plus a possible bonus action attack. Also of note, they are simultaneously too good for NPCs of fractional CRs, and not good enough for any NPC with access to multi-attack (cr 1 and above)

I like the scatter rule as an aiming idea, but the extra damage should be related to being point blank next to the target, if you want to keep it.

 

[eamon]

1) reload-with-an-action should probably be a trait applied to the item - "Muzzle-loading", say.
Good point; I'll definitely fix that.
3) You've missed the "two-handed" trait on muskets and rifles

Good points, I'll definitely fix those.

2) Rather than a firearm expert feat, I'd go with a martial fighting style with just the reload 1/turn free, available to any martial class as usual.

I'm a little leery here, since I'm afraid these weapons might be overpowered. Feats are precious so I'm hoping this will discourage all but the most enthusiastic users from using a firearm as a primary weapon. As a weapon to start off the combat? Yep - but not to be used alone.

And some more general things:
1) I think you have too many of these in the "simple" weapons category. It all depends, though, on what sort of technology level you're going for - you seem to have a bit of a mix. In particular, though, you have only two-handed guns in the martial section.
2) Note that firing a gun makes a very loud noise
3) You need prices for powder and bullets, and tools for making more bullets

On a completely unrelated note:

1) I really prefer being hit by a gun to be deadly. Something along the lines of: On a critical hit, the target must make a DC15 Con save or drop to 0 hit points immediately. But that probably doesn't fit your needs

Yeah, I want these guns to be novel, but certainly widespread - yet I don't want the game to entirely revolve around them. If a player wants to player an archer, that should work. In consequence, I'm going to play up their unpolished mechanics, and keep the lethality a little low to avoid them being an obvious choice. (And like Morrus said - being stabbed in the face isn't exactly fun and games either).

A general rule of thumb, if gun rules are more cumbersome than crossbow rules, they are too cumbersome.
This is especially true of reloading and damage rules.

I would make reloading a bonus action, if I had to do it at all. Perhaps upping the tech level to copper-capped cartridges would ease things, it is the pseudo-industrial revolution after all.

As it stands, these guns (save for the rifles when used at extreme range) are unattractive options for PCs to use due to the one attack every other round rule. At level 4, most of the classes who do weapon attacks are already getting 2 a round, plus a possible bonus action attack. Also of note, they are simultaneously too good for NPCs of fractional CRs, and not good enough for any NPC with access to multi-attack (cr 1 and above)

A PC can use several weapons. Using exclusively guns is a weak option by design. I'm hoping that using a gun as an opening shot works better here... As for NPC's, the high cost and rarity mean that fractional CR's shouldn't be running around with them (at least, that's going to be my line).

I like the scatter rule as an aiming idea, but the extra damage should be related to being point blank next to the target, if you want to keep it.

Yep, that's the intent - I'll write a new version to clarify...

 

[GreenTengu]

I know the knee-jerk reaction is to make them unique and special and different because they are not the same weapon and have different mechanical processes, but you know what?

One doesn't lose any realism and maintains the balance if one simply makes crossbows and guns equal.

Light Crossbow = Basic Rifle
Hand Crossbow = Pistol
Heavy Crossbow = Long Rifle

Now... a short-ranged one like a shotgun? Well... huh... Okay. let's say its effective range is the same as a thrown weapon (30/60) or the blowgun if you don't want to be quite that drastic (50/100) and does d12 damage but is otherwise identical to a heavy crossbow. If you want to make it a simple weapon, then it deals d10 damage instead.

Everything else you do is just going to over-complicate things, make them imbalanced and frankly reduce the realism and accuracy of it anyway. There really isn't enough difference between a crossbow and an early rifle as it is anyway.

Now, any additions to them such as scopes or whatever-- those aren't separate weapons. Those are the masterwork versions! Assuming that the DMG has rules for masterwork weapons.

Again, I know your knee-jerk reaction is to say they HAVE to have different rules than Crossbows, but I want you to fight that and stop and really consider how little effective difference there is between the loading times, damage, range and so on between early firearms and crossbows anyhow. Surely you can look at other weapons on the list and realize they have effectively identical stats in the game yet are very, very different weapons in practical use.

We want to boil away all the nit-picky, fussy details that will detract from the fun and boil it down to something as easy and simple to use as possible while being as well-balanced with the other options as possible. You make something that is just flat out better but costs more money, then it isn't balanced because at a certain level PCs will almost certainly have more money than they know what to do with anyway. So gold cost really only keeps them out of the hands of level 1s. If you make the rules complicated and effectively make them really powerful for use on the first round and then best never used for the rest of combat, then everyone will just keep them available for the first shot before switching weapons which costs no actions or time.

I don't know what to tell you... as much as I know there is this feeling that they deserve their own special rules, just making them identical to the crossbows really is by far both the simplest and the best option.

 

[eamon]

Firearms for Zeitgeist in 5e; take 2!

[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 100%"] [TR] [TD]Name[/TD] [TD]Damage[/TD] [TD]Range[/TD] [TD]Price[/TD] [TD]Weight[/TD] [TD]Properties[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]Simple[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Pistol[/TD] [TD]1d8[/TD] [TD]30/120[/TD] [TD]50gp[/TD] [TD]2lb[/TD] [TD]muzzle-loaded, lethal, light
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Target Pistol[/TD] [TD]1d8[/TD] [TD]40/160/800[/TD] [TD]400gp[/TD] [TD]2lb[/TD] [TD]muzzle-loaded, lethal, light, rifled, rare
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Carbine[/TD] [TD]1d10[/TD] [TD]90/360[/TD] [TD]50gp[/TD] [TD]5lb[/TD] [TD]muzzle-loaded, lethal, two-handed
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Rifle-Carbine[/TD] [TD]1d10[/TD] [TD]100/400/2000[/TD] [TD]500gp[/TD] [TD]5lb[/TD] [TD]muzzle-loaded, lethal, two-handed, rifled, rare
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Shotgun[/TD] [TD]1d8
[/TD] [TD]25/100
[/TD] [TD]100gp[/TD] [TD]15lb
[/TD] [TD]muzzle-loaded, two-handed, scatter, rare
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]Martial[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Musket[/TD] [TD]1d12[/TD] [TD]100/400[/TD] [TD]60gp[/TD] [TD]10lb[/TD] [TD]muzzle-loaded, lethal, two-handed
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Rifle-musket[/TD] [TD]1d12[/TD] [TD]110/440/2200[/TD] [TD]600gp[/TD] [TD]10lb[/TD] [TD]muzzle-loaded, lethal, two-handed, rifled
[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
Muzzle-loaded: Muzzle-loaded weapons require a full action to load. Wielders not proficient with the weapon being loaded require two consecutive actions to load the weapon. Muzzle-loaded weapons cannot be fired without ammunition (you can consider them to have the ammunition property, except that spent ammunition cannot be recovered).

Lethal: Guns are particularly lethal. They deal an extra 1d12 damage on a critical hit (this dice is not doubled by the critical hit). However, on a critical miss, you suffer a misfire and take 1d6 damage.

Rifled: Rifled weapons can accurately shoot at extreme range. To make a shot at extreme range (3rd number in the range column), you must aim at the target as an action. You can maintain your aim as a bonus action. You lose your aim when you move or take damage. While aiming, you can attack the target with disadvantage and a -2 penalty. An expert gunsmith can sometimes attach a spyglass to such a weapon; a well-aligned spyglass removes the -2 penalty (but not the disadvantage). When aiming through a spyglass you cannot see anything that is not directly in line with the target.

Rare: Requisitioning rare items is hard (the favor level increases by 1 - zeitgeist rule)

Scatter: Scatter weapons have advantage at close range. When you roll two dice at close range and both rolls would hit, increase the damage roll by one die (e.g. 1d8 becomes 2d8).

Ammunition costs 1gp per 15 bullets; 2gp for rare weaponry. Scatter ammunition costs twice the usual amount.

Firearm expert feat: +1Dex, reload free 1/turn.

What do you think?

 

[eamon]

I know the knee-jerk reaction is to make them unique and special and different because they are not the same weapon and have different mechanical processes, but you know what?

One doesn't lose any realism and maintains the balance if one simply makes crossbows and guns equal.

[...]

Everything else you do is just going to over-complicate things, make them imbalanced and frankly reduce the realism and accuracy of it anyway. There really isn't enough difference between a crossbow and an early rifle as it is anyway.

Our group appreciates crunch; simply making the weapons identical will mean people think about them in an identical fashion; and that will reduce immersion and fun - in our group, anyhow.

However, if a player really wants to focus on guns exclusively in his character, I'll take your advice and just copy an existing ranged weapon. It's easy enough to explain too - my variants are less reliable and slower to load; the faster revolver-style loading weapons may simply be too fragile (in this campaign) to take normal ammunition.

We want to boil away all the nit-picky, fussy details that will detract from the fun and boil it down to something as easy and simple to use as possible while being as well-balanced with the other options as possible. You make something that is just flat out better but costs more money, then it isn't balanced because at a certain level PCs will almost certainly have more money than they know what to do with anyway. So gold cost really only keeps them out of the hands of level 1s. If you make the rules complicated and effectively make them really powerful for use on the first round and then best never used for the rest of combat, then everyone will just keep them available for the first shot before switching weapons which costs no actions or time.

Frankly, that's exactly what I'm hoping for - I want to keep the weapons out of level 1's trivial reach to protect the PC's from low-CR opponents. Simultaneously, I want the weapons to be primarily useful in an opening salvo - there's nothing wrong with that, and it makes sure that any balance errors I make will remain relatively minor. As a bonus, there's an element of historical accuracy to that.

However, nit-picky rules aren't good: If you've got any suggestions for simplifications, I'd love to incorporate those.