Please help: D20 vs. the Out of Print Alliance

[Sebastian Ashputtle]

[I hope it's okay, but I also posted this on RPG.net. If it isn't okay, I'm sure the moderators will let me know. ]

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I need help, everyone, so here it is. I'll try to keep it short.

I've been away from RPGs for many years now (started playing back in 1980 with D&D). Last year I decided to get back into the hobby and now I have a problem. What game or games? Now I've spent the past year doing all kinds of research and reading, trying to decide on a game. Played a lot of d20 and GURPS in that time, including some Shadowrun and Cthulhu.

Don't worry: I'm not about to ask you guys, "What game should I buy?" Nothing is more subjective and open-ended than that. My question is far more specific.

Here is my dilemma.

On the one hand, I really enjoy many aspects of d20, and I like the fact that I can play Cthulhu (d20), D&D, Adventure! (d20) and D20 Modern/Future (coming out soon without changing rule sets. I also like the fact that with D&D I can get a game easily, as most people are familiar with it. On the other hand, I really dislike how intricate and complex the combat system is, especially how focused it is on tactics, reach, spacing, modifiers, modifiers, modifiers.

Yet instead of the d20 route, I've been thinking of something completely different: out of print games. The games are: Alternity (modern and futuristic), Call of Cthulhu BRP (horror), Advanced D&D 2nd edition (esp. Ravenloft and Planescape), and Adventure! (pulp action). These games seem to have fewer rules and are much less "tactical/miniatures based than d20. I am especially fond of Alternity. Yet I fear that having to learn four different sets of mechanics will be just as difficult as learning D20, perhaps far more. I also worry that finding players for these OOP games will be difficult.

[Disclaimer: I realize that Cthulhu BRP isn't out of print...I'm lumping it in the OOP category just 'cause the other three are. ]

Help me choose, gentlemen, and give me your reasons, please:

OPTION 1: D20
***D&D 3.5, D20 Modern, D20 Future, Call of Cthulhu D20, Adventure! D20

Pros: One set of rules (with minor variations), easy to find players.
Cons: Too many rules, especially regarding combat. Too complex!

OPTION 2: Out-of-Print Alliance
***Alternity, AD&D 2e, Adventure! (Storyteller), Call of Cthulhu (BRP)

Pros: Simpler rules, each game has distinct mechanics that fit each genre.
Cons: Hard to find players for these games (especially Alternity and Adventure!), pain of learning four different sets of mechanics.


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I would be grateful for any and all feedback, especially regarding the specific issue of (a) D20 complexity and (b) Problem of learning four different mechanics.

Hope this all made sense. I look forward to reading everyone's replies.

 

[Crothian]

Wow, you really don't pick an easy topic.

Like any system, the more you play it the better it will run. d20 can be complex starting out but it does run smooth once you get it down. That won't happen if you are trying to learn 4 new systems.

But with 4 new systems, the system has a better chance to really effect the game. Some times d20 gamews even of different genres can feel similiar because of the similiar mechanics. Different mechanics really help differenciate games. However, while it may be easy for you as the guy running it the players might bulk at this idea of always learning a new system.

Used products are not as hard to find as you might think. If you have a half price books store (its a chain of stores) or other discount place like that you can sometimes find gold mines of stuff really cxheap. On line also has many options and if you hunt you can find good deals.

 

[Ron]

Do whatever you really want. It almost appears to me that you trying to find some support to your decision of playing out of print games. If this is what you want, more power to you! I hardly play anything anymore and in the last few years and have not run any game. Still I was able to join some friends games from time to time. I've played in the last one year Classic Traveller, DC Heroes, The Wheel of Time, and 2nd edition AD&D. None of them are in print (although The Wheel of Time is d20) and I've a lot of fun with everyone of them.

 

[diaglo]

of your choices..

i'd say go with the OoP Alliance. but i'm not you. so i don't know what makes you tick.

 

[Piratecat]

Well, rules can be learned (if you can find the rulesbooks for your players, that is.) I think the real advantage is that it is MUCH easier to find players for newer games. Unless you already have a loyal gaming group, recruiting good players can be a challenge.

Personally I'd use a mixture and play Call of Cthulhu BRP, Adventure! (Storyteller), D20 Modern, D20 Future, and D&D 3.5. In my opinion that provides some rules stability while keeping the best editions of each game.

 

[maddman75]

There are plenty of in print games that have a simpler system than d20 if that's what you want. I'm a big big fan of the Unisystem by Eden Studios. There's a variety of games out for it - Buffy/Angel (probably best version IMO), All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Witchcraft, Armageddon. Its an easy system to adopt to whatever you like as well. You can even download Witchcraft for free from Eden's website to see if you like the system.

But if you want to run OOP games and can find players for them, then more power to you! There are also conversions of Planescape on the web, and Sword and Sorcery have taken the helm of Ravenloft and ported it to 3e. So there's no reason you can't use the excellent 2e settings with the 3e rules.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Personally I'd use a mixture and play Call of Cthulhu BRP, Adventure! (Storyteller), D20 Modern, D20 Future, and D&D 3.5.

Oooh! Cyberpunk C'thulu with fireballs!

My opinion is that you should play C'thulu if you can get the players. If you can't, there's always D&D. There's no scientific proof that the 3.5 rules won't blow your head up like that guy in Scanners but it hasn't happened yet, so no worries!

 

[rogueattorney]

There's no scientific proof that the 3.5 rules won't blow your head up like that guy in Scanners but it hasn't happened yet, so no worries!

It's happened. I swear. A friend of my cousin's mother-in-law knew this guy that saw it happen at a con in Topeka, Kansas back in '03.

To the question at hand. I have the same problem with d20 as the original poster. I won't DM it. I'll play it if I have no other choice.

I find using essentially the same rules for every genre of RPG boring. I'd rather have game A for fantasy, game B for Supers, game C for horror, etc. I just find that more interesting. When I'm not playing D&D, I want to play a different game. I don't want to be playing D&D dressed up in a different suit.

So, get out there and explore game systems. There are tons of them. Find the ones you like best and play them as much as you can. The one that I like best is B/X D&D. I play it as much as I can.

R.A.

 

[Bagpuss]

Play whatever you can find players for, otherwise you won't play at all its that simple. I think you are more likely to find players for CoC(BRP) than CoC(D20) by the way.

If you are GM'ing and don't like complex systems play Feng Shui it doesn't get anymore fun, or much simpler.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, it's difficult to answer this for you, although it's easy to answer for me. I'd say the advantages of using d20 outweigh any other advantages of system you may percieve. Then again, I don't think the d20 system is all that complex.

Especially if you move away from D&D with it's entire core book of monsters, another core book's worth of spells and magic items and dungeon properties spread between the DMG and the PHB. Combat is still a longish chapter, but not moreso really than it is in the Storyteller books, for instance.

I find the d20 combat system to be pretty intuitive, and with a little practice, it's not hard at all to run.

Particularly if you're out of print option includes a rotation through 2e AD&D -- to me, that's a game I wouldn't touch when it was in print, much less now. And it does seem somewhat counter-intuitive to say that d20 is too complicated, so you're going back to AD&D 2e, as well as several other games.

That being said, I really do like the Alternity system as well; in many ways I wish it was a universal system. I guess it could be with just a little bit of work; it's already got magic and psychic effects in Dark*Matter that can work for fantasy, horror, etc., and futuristic's sewn up with Star*Drive. I'm not really that hot on Storyteller or BRP.

Howsabout GURPS? It may have all the advantages you're looking for without the negatives, although it's arguably as complex (or much moreso) than d20, depending on how you play it.