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<blockquote data-quote="Pax" data-source="post: 331552" data-attributes="member: 6875"><p>Yes, absolutely. If it replaces Improved Trip, then the feat should REPLACE Improved trip, not add to it. It <strong>adds</strong> no real functionality to the damage atatck + trip attack combination, except tolet you make the damaging attackfirst, and then require you to meet or beat a damage threshold before proceeding to the trip attack.</p><p></p><p>If the feats chained more along the lines of Cleave / Great Cleave, that would be one thing (where Great Cleave is basically "Cleave and Again"). However, Knockdown is <strong>not</strong> "Improved trip, and again".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. <strong>If</strong> your first attack hits, and then <strong>if</strong> you do sufficient damage (lets face it, most pre-ELH characters don't have a guaranteed 10+ damage per hit), you have the option of attempting a trip, and <strong>if</strong> you succeed at that attempt, you get to attack again; <strong>if</strong> that last attack roll connects, you get to do damage again.</p><p></p><p>So we're lookng at:</p><p></p><p><strong>?</strong> (1) Roll to hit</p><p><strong>if</strong> successful, proceed to (2) <strong>else</strong> terminate sequence</p><p><strong>?</strong> (2) Roll damage</p><p><strong>if</strong> damage>9, proceed to (3) <strong>else</strong> terminate sequence</p><p><strong>?</strong> (3) Roll to hit</p><p><strong>if</strong> successful, proceed to (4) <strong>else</strong> terminate sequence</p><p><strong>?</strong> (4) Roll Opposed Trip</p><p><strong>if</strong> successful, proceed to (5) <strong>else</strong> suffer consequences</p><p><strong>?</strong> (5) Roll to hit</p><p><strong>if</strong> successful, proceed to (6) <strong>else</strong> terminate sequence</p><p><strong>!</strong> (6) Roll Damage</p><p></p><p>I count <strong>six</strong> times the entire sequence can be derailed by not getting a good enough roll to proceed. "Suffer consequences" as a reuslt of step (4) refers to teh fact that a failed trip ofteninvolves being tripped, or losing one's weapon(s) where the weapon specifies this as an option.</p><p></p><p>Neither of those penalties is insignificant; either one surrenders the initiative to the enemy, and he who surrenders the initiative in combat ... typically loses. Often badly.</p><p></p><p>I don't see how the above sequence is unalanced, and yet ...it's exactly how the feat is presented in <em>Sword and Fist</em>.</p><p></p><p>And you nkknow what? I'm willing to bet the Errata for Knockdown came in response to fears of an "infinite loop" combination (knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, <em>knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, </em>knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, <em>knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, </em> and so on and so forth). <strong>I</strong> fixed that problem with much better simplicity: prone creatures cannot be tripped. End of loop. End of problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see that. IT allows you to make the attempt, but it does not automatically follow that the to-hit roll is obviated in regard to the trip attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Cleave or Great Cleave attacks canbe against anyone; Knockdownand Improved Trip attacks have to be against the same target. Otherwise, Improved Trip itself allows a Whirlwind-like attack on everything in reach (not just within 5', if you have a Spiked Chain), as oen trip allows you to try for another, on a <em>different</em> foe. More restricted target ---> better frequency of use = balance.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Improved Trip already gives you that attack, and all subsequent attacks, at +4. Errata'd, there is a LOT less reason to bother with Knockdown.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well it shoudl be at least <strong>somewhat</strong> better. Cleave is second step in a feat chain; Knockdown is the THIRD step. Knockdown is better compared to Great Cleave.</p><p></p><p>I disagree on it being "vastly" better, as cleave works with anything, and only certain weapons can even <strong>attempt</strong> a trip attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree, bu regardless, it <strong>should</strong> be better. Again, it's the third in a chain (Expertise -- Improved Trip -- <em>Knockdown</em>) versus the second in a chain (Power Attack -- <em>Cleave</em> -- Great Cleave).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You DO realise, a failed trip attack screws the trip-er over, landing either <strong>him</strong> or <strong>his weapon</strong> sprawled at the trip-ee's feet?</p><p></p><p>Improved Trip and Knockdown inherently involve a greater degree of <strong>risk</strong> than Cleave or Great Cleave, so that also justifies anincrease in power level.</p><p></p><p>In my mind, that alone justifies Improved Trip beign better than Cleave (which it is), and pre-errata Knockdown being better than Great Cleave (which it is, but only <em>pre-errata</em>).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I strongly disagree; the reasons are spelled out above, but to summarise:</p><p></p><p><strong>One, </strong> Knockdown shoudl be compared to Great Cleave, as both are the third in a three-feat chain. Comparing the third feat in a chain to the second, and you are AUTOMATICALLY biasing the comparison.</p><p></p><p><strong>Two</strong>, Improved Trip and Knockdown are more restricted in which weapons allow their use, than Cleave or Great Cleave; only certan weapons can be used to make Trip attacks, therefor, the feats should get some degree of enhanced perceived power to comensate. You can cleave with anything, but you can't <strong>trip</strong> with anything.</p><p></p><p><strong>Three,</strong> trip attacks carry a certain degree of risk; in the event of a failure, either the attacker accepts being tripped themselves, or, the atatcker surrenders their weapon, and drops it. This heightened tactical risk also justifies anenhancement to the perceived power level of the feats. Taken with two above, this justifies a qite significant power increase in relation to the power atatck / cleave / great cleave chain.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pax, post: 331552, member: 6875"] Yes, absolutely. If it replaces Improved Trip, then the feat should REPLACE Improved trip, not add to it. It [b]adds[/b] no real functionality to the damage atatck + trip attack combination, except tolet you make the damaging attackfirst, and then require you to meet or beat a damage threshold before proceeding to the trip attack. If the feats chained more along the lines of Cleave / Great Cleave, that would be one thing (where Great Cleave is basically "Cleave and Again"). However, Knockdown is [b]not[/b] "Improved trip, and again". No. [b]If[/b] your first attack hits, and then [b]if[/b] you do sufficient damage (lets face it, most pre-ELH characters don't have a guaranteed 10+ damage per hit), you have the option of attempting a trip, and [b]if[/b] you succeed at that attempt, you get to attack again; [b]if[/b] that last attack roll connects, you get to do damage again. So we're lookng at: [b]?[/b] (1) Roll to hit [b]if[/b] successful, proceed to (2) [b]else[/b] terminate sequence [b]?[/b] (2) Roll damage [b]if[/b] damage>9, proceed to (3) [b]else[/b] terminate sequence [b]?[/b] (3) Roll to hit [b]if[/b] successful, proceed to (4) [b]else[/b] terminate sequence [b]?[/b] (4) Roll Opposed Trip [b]if[/b] successful, proceed to (5) [b]else[/b] suffer consequences [b]?[/b] (5) Roll to hit [b]if[/b] successful, proceed to (6) [b]else[/b] terminate sequence [b]![/b] (6) Roll Damage I count [b]six[/b] times the entire sequence can be derailed by not getting a good enough roll to proceed. "Suffer consequences" as a reuslt of step (4) refers to teh fact that a failed trip ofteninvolves being tripped, or losing one's weapon(s) where the weapon specifies this as an option. Neither of those penalties is insignificant; either one surrenders the initiative to the enemy, and he who surrenders the initiative in combat ... typically loses. Often badly. I don't see how the above sequence is unalanced, and yet ...it's exactly how the feat is presented in [i]Sword and Fist[/i]. And you nkknow what? I'm willing to bet the Errata for Knockdown came in response to fears of an "infinite loop" combination (knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, [i]knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, [/i]knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, [i]knock him down, get free trip, succeed in trip, get free attack, [/i] and so on and so forth). [b]I[/b] fixed that problem with much better simplicity: prone creatures cannot be tripped. End of loop. End of problem. I don't see that. IT allows you to make the attempt, but it does not automatically follow that the to-hit roll is obviated in regard to the trip attack. The Cleave or Great Cleave attacks canbe against anyone; Knockdownand Improved Trip attacks have to be against the same target. Otherwise, Improved Trip itself allows a Whirlwind-like attack on everything in reach (not just within 5', if you have a Spiked Chain), as oen trip allows you to try for another, on a [i]different[/i] foe. More restricted target ---> better frequency of use = balance. Improved Trip already gives you that attack, and all subsequent attacks, at +4. Errata'd, there is a LOT less reason to bother with Knockdown. Well it shoudl be at least [b]somewhat[/b] better. Cleave is second step in a feat chain; Knockdown is the THIRD step. Knockdown is better compared to Great Cleave. I disagree on it being "vastly" better, as cleave works with anything, and only certain weapons can even [b]attempt[/b] a trip attack. I disagree, bu regardless, it [b]should[/b] be better. Again, it's the third in a chain (Expertise -- Improved Trip -- [i]Knockdown[/i]) versus the second in a chain (Power Attack -- [i]Cleave[/i] -- Great Cleave). You DO realise, a failed trip attack screws the trip-er over, landing either [b]him[/b] or [b]his weapon[/b] sprawled at the trip-ee's feet? Improved Trip and Knockdown inherently involve a greater degree of [b]risk[/b] than Cleave or Great Cleave, so that also justifies anincrease in power level. In my mind, that alone justifies Improved Trip beign better than Cleave (which it is), and pre-errata Knockdown being better than Great Cleave (which it is, but only [i]pre-errata[/i]). No, I strongly disagree; the reasons are spelled out above, but to summarise: [b]One, [/b] Knockdown shoudl be compared to Great Cleave, as both are the third in a three-feat chain. Comparing the third feat in a chain to the second, and you are AUTOMATICALLY biasing the comparison. [b]Two[/b], Improved Trip and Knockdown are more restricted in which weapons allow their use, than Cleave or Great Cleave; only certan weapons can be used to make Trip attacks, therefor, the feats should get some degree of enhanced perceived power to comensate. You can cleave with anything, but you can't [b]trip[/b] with anything. [b]Three,[/b] trip attacks carry a certain degree of risk; in the event of a failure, either the attacker accepts being tripped themselves, or, the atatcker surrenders their weapon, and drops it. This heightened tactical risk also justifies anenhancement to the perceived power level of the feats. Taken with two above, this justifies a qite significant power increase in relation to the power atatck / cleave / great cleave chain. [/QUOTE]
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