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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 331772" data-attributes="member: 2011">The issue here is the ease in which Knockdown can be done.How hard is it to roll 10 points of damage? Typically it‘s fairly easy, in fact, it is often automatic at mid to high level for a straight combatant type character. For example, if your +2 Longsword and 18 Strength and Weapon Specialization could manage a 9, you could easily have the Cleric buff you up with Bulls Strength, or you could put one point in via Power Attack, etc. It is a piece of cake to automatically get a minimum of 10 points of damage for most combatant types at mid to high level.How hard is it to roll a touch attack on the trip attempt? Typically you have a 95% chance by the time a character acquires this feat and will only fail on a one.How hard is it to make the opposed check to trip? Typically, you only do this when your opponent appears less capable, hence, your chance is typically better than 50%.How hard is it to make the opposed check to trip if you fail the first opposed check? Typically, you only do this when your opponent appears less capable, hence, your chance is typically less than 50%. And, if you are really worried about being counter tripped, you can carry multiple weapons that give the trip capability and all you lose is your weapon for a short period of time.For example, in the case of you having a 60% chance to succeed a trip, you will succeed 60% of the time, nothing will happen 24% of the time, and you will fail 16% of the time. Assuming you only do this when your chance is 50% or better, the odds (round closest) for most combat situations works out to be:50 25 2555 25 2060 24 1665 23 1270 21 0975 19 06And, the first roll to hit is irrelevant. If you are just attacking, you either hit or you do not. The question comes down to what MORE can you do with Knockdown, if you do hit.So, what does this mean in lay terms? Let’s take the 60% chance to trip case again. It means that when you feel that you have an advantage, you will be at an even greater advantage about 4 times as often as your opponent. If you succeed, you will get +4 more to hit (as will your allies) and your opponent will not be able to do full round attacks on his turn.And, in a full round attack sequence, you can attempt this virtually every time you hit, so at mid to high levels with 3, 4, or even more attacks per round depending on other feats, you have a good chance of putting your opponent down every round. In the 60% chance to trip case, this means that more than 84% of the time (i.e. you either did not do 10 points or you failed the range touch attack or you succeeded, or nothing happened), you will not fail the first time you attempt it and can try it again later in the same full round attack sequence.When you look at the fact that characters with this feat can either boost their Strength themselves (e.g. Barbarians or Fighter/Clerics) or have it done for them (e.g. magic items or assistance from spell casters) and they decided when to do it or not, it’s fairly easy to see that the chance to do 10 points of damage is fairly high or automatic and the chance to make the opposed roll is fairly high as well. Yes, if you are taking on a combatant type or a Rogue, your chances might be in the 50% to 60% range. But, if you are taking on some other class character or a lot of same sized Monsters, your chance will often fall in the 65% to 75% or higher.When you see that their opponent is not only effectively at -4 AC, but that the character with the feat can start doing full round attacks to his opponent’s one attack, or he does one attack to his opponent’s zero attacks (i.e. the opponent gets up and moves away instead of getting up and attacking), this can be game breaking.One other good tactic with this. Charge up and attack. Chances are good that you will do damage and trip your opponent, all with one attack. Then, you can start up the full round attack versus one attack cycle on the next round.Granted, there is a chance that your opponent will counter trip you (assuming that you are not using a trip weapon). Big deal. What is better? Being at no perceptible advantage every single round, or being at a significant advantage anywhere from 2 to 12 times as often? Round after round after round.Allowing the extra attack from Improved Trip just takes this from an extremely potent feat (compared to other comparable 3 feat chain feats like Great Cleave where you might be able to use it one combat in 20 at mid to high level) to a broken one. IMO.Btw, Improved Trip is very potent as well, just like the errata version of Knockdown. In fact, there is little difference between them except that with Knockdown, even if you get counter tripped, you still have done damage. So, it is typically a little more potent than Improved Trip. Knockdown is a better choice against lower ACs (for example, early on in a full round attack sequence), and Improved Trip is a better choice against higher ACs (for example, later on in a full round attack sequence if you have not already knocked them down).And, that’s how it should be, a little more potent than Improved Trip. Not, 3 attacks (hit, trip, attack again at +4) compared to 2 attacks (trip, attack again at +4) from one attack and one feat. That’s unbalanced. Throwing "unbalanced penalties of loss DEX bonus" on top of that is ludicrously unbalanced.Finally, the argument that only certain weapons can trip is specious. First off, the type of character who takes Improved Trip and Knockdown is often likely going to take a weapon that can trip. Just like a character who takes Ambidexterity and Two Weapon Fighting will most likely take weapons that allow him to use those feats.Plus, you do not NEED a trip weapon in order to trip. I can attack with a longsword with Knockdown, do the 10 points of damage, and then attempt to trip you with my leg. Nothing in S&F says that I have to use the same weapon to attempt to trip you. It just says that I have to do it against the same target. Ditto for Improved Trip, or any trip for that matter.</blockquote>

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