Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Please rate Knock-Down
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 335881" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>Well, it sounds that way to a lot of us. It appears that you are not even considering making a balanced comparison here.</p><p></p><p></p><p>First off, the errata version of Knockdown does more average damage than Improved Trip. Hence, it is already more powerful.</p><p></p><p>For example, say you have a 70% chance to hit a given AC and a 50% chance to make the opposed check.</p><p></p><p>With Knockdown (per errata), you do 0.7 (X + 0.5 trip) = 0.7X damage and 0.35 trip chance.</p><p></p><p>With Improved Trip, you do 0.5 ( 0.9X + trip) = 0.45X damage and 0.5 trip chance. You have to trip before you can get the higher increased chance (i.e. +4 prone) to do damage.</p><p></p><p>So, Improved Trip gives a slightly better chance to trip, Knockdown does more damage. I’ll leave it to someone else to show the math that this applies to full round attacks as well as single attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But, I think you are ignoring a basic tenet of most feats:</p><p></p><p>Weapon Focus does +1 to hit (pro). Every hit with one weapon (slight con).</p><p></p><p>Weapon Specialization does +2 to damage (pro). Every damage with one weapon (slight con). Only Fighters 4th or higher can get it (con).</p><p></p><p>Power Attack gives up to +X damage (pro) where X <= BAB. But, there is a downside. -X to hit for all attacks that round, even additional attacks due to high BAB at -5, -10, etc. (con).</p><p></p><p>Pros and Cons.</p><p></p><p>You gain something, but you typically either lose something, or you gain something in limited circumstances, or you gain a very small something without a con.</p><p></p><p>Iron Will +2 to will saves (pro). There is no con here, but it is only +2. Compare that to the +4 for attacking while prone once knocked down.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Knockdown your interpretation: Pros</p><p></p><p>1) Knockdown which requires move equivalent to get up next round.</p><p></p><p>2) All future attacks by self and allies against this target until next round at +4.</p><p></p><p>3) If you get countertripped, at least you did damage this round (i.e. more average damage).</p><p></p><p>4) Addition Improved Trip attack at +4.</p><p></p><p>5) Drop DEX bonus.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Knockdown your interpretation: Neither Pros nor Cons</p><p></p><p>1) You need to do 10 points of damage which is usually automatic or nearly there by the time you get this feat. Not a significant con.</p><p></p><p>2) You need to make a touch attack which is typically a 95% chance by the time you get this feat. Not a significant con.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Knockdown your interpretation: Cons</p><p></p><p>1) You need to make the opposed roll which is typically better than 50%.</p><p></p><p>2) You can be countertripped.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You have two cons.</p><p></p><p>But, you have five significant pros, most of which could be a feat by themselves. For example, you could have a feat which prevents a DEX bonus on an opponent and lower his AC by 2 or 4 or 6 or whatever. In and of itself, that is a worthwhile feat.</p><p></p><p>And yes, I know you can pull out the response: but it is the third feat in a feat chain. My response: so? Does that mean you should munchkin the feat?</p><p></p><p>Whirlwind is the 5th feat in a chain and you can only use it once in a while.</p><p></p><p>Great Cleave is the 3rd feat in a chain and you can only use it once in a great while. Cleave actually might happen a few times per combat, but Great Cleave averages a lot less then once per combat unless you are fighting blind kobolds. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I think the real problem here is that Improved Trip is a very potent feat to begin with, so you think that any feat above it in the chain should be much more potent than Improve Trip as opposed to slightly more potent.</p><p></p><p>And, that does happen with higher feats with an exception that you are forgetting about (or ignoring). Great Cleave IS more potent than Cleave. But, the con is that although you might get to do Cleave a few times per battle, the frequency of Great Cleave is significantly less. You might get to Great Cleave one battle in four or five.</p><p></p><p>So, there is a significant con that Cleave does not have, even though Great Cleave is one feat higher on the list.</p><p></p><p>Pros and Cons. Even though the higher feat is more potent, it also has a significant disadvantage as well.</p><p></p><p>With your interpretation of Knockdown, not only is it more potent than Improved Trip, it does not have any additional cons either.</p><p></p><p>You gave it three significant pros over Improved Trip (more average damage, no DEX bonus, and an additional attack, i.e. a trip and 2 attacks as opposed to a trip and 1 attack), but you gave it no cons. You "munchkined" it IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In the interpretation which drops pros #4 and #5 above, it is balanced. Why? Because you only gain one pro, but you do not gain any cons. What you do gain over Improved Trip is the choice to attack and trip as opposed to trip and attack. Tactically, this is a significant choice since it allows you to constantly attack and even if you fail the counter trip, at least you've done damage on a successful attack which also averages more damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So yes, bottom line, I think you at not good at judging feat balance. And, as a further support of my opinion on your judgment, there has not been one person supporting your point of view. Most people who have a unique opinion tend to at least get a few supporters. This should tell you something as well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 335881, member: 2011"] Well, it sounds that way to a lot of us. It appears that you are not even considering making a balanced comparison here. First off, the errata version of Knockdown does more average damage than Improved Trip. Hence, it is already more powerful. For example, say you have a 70% chance to hit a given AC and a 50% chance to make the opposed check. With Knockdown (per errata), you do 0.7 (X + 0.5 trip) = 0.7X damage and 0.35 trip chance. With Improved Trip, you do 0.5 ( 0.9X + trip) = 0.45X damage and 0.5 trip chance. You have to trip before you can get the higher increased chance (i.e. +4 prone) to do damage. So, Improved Trip gives a slightly better chance to trip, Knockdown does more damage. I’ll leave it to someone else to show the math that this applies to full round attacks as well as single attacks. But, I think you are ignoring a basic tenet of most feats: Weapon Focus does +1 to hit (pro). Every hit with one weapon (slight con). Weapon Specialization does +2 to damage (pro). Every damage with one weapon (slight con). Only Fighters 4th or higher can get it (con). Power Attack gives up to +X damage (pro) where X <= BAB. But, there is a downside. -X to hit for all attacks that round, even additional attacks due to high BAB at -5, -10, etc. (con). Pros and Cons. You gain something, but you typically either lose something, or you gain something in limited circumstances, or you gain a very small something without a con. Iron Will +2 to will saves (pro). There is no con here, but it is only +2. Compare that to the +4 for attacking while prone once knocked down. Knockdown your interpretation: Pros 1) Knockdown which requires move equivalent to get up next round. 2) All future attacks by self and allies against this target until next round at +4. 3) If you get countertripped, at least you did damage this round (i.e. more average damage). 4) Addition Improved Trip attack at +4. 5) Drop DEX bonus. Knockdown your interpretation: Neither Pros nor Cons 1) You need to do 10 points of damage which is usually automatic or nearly there by the time you get this feat. Not a significant con. 2) You need to make a touch attack which is typically a 95% chance by the time you get this feat. Not a significant con. Knockdown your interpretation: Cons 1) You need to make the opposed roll which is typically better than 50%. 2) You can be countertripped. You have two cons. But, you have five significant pros, most of which could be a feat by themselves. For example, you could have a feat which prevents a DEX bonus on an opponent and lower his AC by 2 or 4 or 6 or whatever. In and of itself, that is a worthwhile feat. And yes, I know you can pull out the response: but it is the third feat in a feat chain. My response: so? Does that mean you should munchkin the feat? Whirlwind is the 5th feat in a chain and you can only use it once in a while. Great Cleave is the 3rd feat in a chain and you can only use it once in a great while. Cleave actually might happen a few times per combat, but Great Cleave averages a lot less then once per combat unless you are fighting blind kobolds. :) I think the real problem here is that Improved Trip is a very potent feat to begin with, so you think that any feat above it in the chain should be much more potent than Improve Trip as opposed to slightly more potent. And, that does happen with higher feats with an exception that you are forgetting about (or ignoring). Great Cleave IS more potent than Cleave. But, the con is that although you might get to do Cleave a few times per battle, the frequency of Great Cleave is significantly less. You might get to Great Cleave one battle in four or five. So, there is a significant con that Cleave does not have, even though Great Cleave is one feat higher on the list. Pros and Cons. Even though the higher feat is more potent, it also has a significant disadvantage as well. With your interpretation of Knockdown, not only is it more potent than Improved Trip, it does not have any additional cons either. You gave it three significant pros over Improved Trip (more average damage, no DEX bonus, and an additional attack, i.e. a trip and 2 attacks as opposed to a trip and 1 attack), but you gave it no cons. You "munchkined" it IMO. In the interpretation which drops pros #4 and #5 above, it is balanced. Why? Because you only gain one pro, but you do not gain any cons. What you do gain over Improved Trip is the choice to attack and trip as opposed to trip and attack. Tactically, this is a significant choice since it allows you to constantly attack and even if you fail the counter trip, at least you've done damage on a successful attack which also averages more damage. So yes, bottom line, I think you at not good at judging feat balance. And, as a further support of my opinion on your judgment, there has not been one person supporting your point of view. Most people who have a unique opinion tend to at least get a few supporters. This should tell you something as well. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Please rate Knock-Down
Top