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Message: <blockquote data-quote="argo" data-source="post: 567003" data-attributes="member: 5752">Hello again.  I'd like to thank everyone for their comments, which are all helpful, and I'm sorry I haven't been by in a couple of days.  That said I have a few thoughts to add to the discussion.First, concerning the question of Favored Terrain and weither or not it made the ranger over-specalized.  Concrete Buddha you had this comment.I have to disagree with you there.  IMHO specialization is built in to the system at a very basic level.  Even the fighter is specalized after a fashion as every level of fighter he takes is a level of wizard he didn't.  And I think that this is a Good Thing as it both encourages cooperation between players and gives them all a chance to stand out at the same time.  Everybody deserves a chance to "shine" when they are in their element, requires a moment of weakeness when they need to rely on the other party members, and should have a lot of time in between where they are very busy adding valuable contributions to the party but are not single handedly saving the day.  I think that my ranger's moment of weakness will be the same as for most other meele types, when the enemy spellcaster is throwing magic around and all he can do is hunker down and wait for the party wizard to pull out the artillery.  So that leaves us with the question; does he "shine" when no other can and does he contribute the rest of the time (ie: will his player get bored)?  Here is what I was thinking when I was working on the class: he needs a strong "core" of talents that will keep working regardless of external circumstances, then he needs some special abilities that will, under the right conditions, really put him over the top and make him the hero of the day, and finally he needs a few abilities which are not that powerful but are really cool and make him feel that being a ranger is somethng special (bonus points if those abilities help out the party so that the other members also think that you are special for being a ranger).  IMO this is how that worked out (please feel free to point out where I went wrong).First the "core" of this class is in his fighters BAB, and his 6 skill points per level plus a skill list which includes the most used skill in the game, spot, as well as the ever popular hide and move silent.  His two good saves (Fort and Ref) round him out as a tough and canny opponent.  When not in combat this guy should always be busy using skill checks to look out for his companions in any number of ways, wheras the fighter is standing around thinking about how much he likes swords.  Beyond simple tracking/scouting who is the guy that is going to climb the cliff to lower the rope for the rest of the party, get them safely out of the storm, and set snares around the campsite before going to bed?  Once the killing starts it is true that the fighter will take over, but I think that his good BAB should keep him plenty busy as the number 2 man in any combat.  He also gets a handfull of bonus feats to round out his combat persona.  Second is making the ranger shine.  This is where favored terrain and animal companions come in.  Yes they are useless in many situations (that was intentional) but when they are there they should elevate the ranger to be something above his normal power level (or at least I think that they do, I could be overestimating them).  And when they are gone they do not impare the ranger's core abilities due to their absence.  It is true that if someoen plays in a game where they begin every session at the entrance to a dungeon and all they see after that is 10' corridors then they will get a lot less mileage out of this class.  But in such a scenario the same can be said for the Bard and Monk and just about all the classes aside from the basic four.  And as far as being good in terrains other than his favored terrain; Wilderness Lore and Knolwedge [nature] still apply everywhere and I still expect the ranger to max out his ranks in them, it is just that in his home terrain he will be _really good_  Third are the "flavor' abilities.  These are tracking and trailblazing/pathfinding.  You probably won't need them unless the DM makes a point of it and he probably won't do that unless there is a ranger in the group but I think they are important nonetheless.  BTW I am still curious if anyone has suggestions for other abilities that are cool, not very powerful, and not a knock-off of another class ability.So that is how I see this class in comparrison to others.  I could be wrong but it seems to make sense to me.  Concrete Buddha, if you still think that the ranger being pigeonholed is a problem perhaps you cold explain it to me in terms of the logic I used above?Now to reply to a few more specific comments:I don't know.  It doesn't seem to me to make much sense that the ranger walks outside and suddenly he becomes just plain better at all those things.  I mean he is still getting those 6 skill points per level so we can expect him to have good Spot, Wilderness Lore, etc. checks anyways.  This feels like we are doing the work for him.  Besides it is more realistic to have a ranger who is really incredible at home and simply good everywhere else. (which he will be with max ranks in Wilderness Lore).If we do keep Favored Terrain as is then the dodge bonus to AC there is more than enough and I still think that feels more "realistic".  Hey!  How about this:Survival Instinct:  At 3rd level the ranger may add his Wisdom bonus as an insight bonus to his initative.I think that is not too powerful and is in keeping with the "fast" archtype I have been pushing.Nah, they are pretty minor abilites and I don't see a need to make the player wait _that_ long.One worry now is defenaetly the issue of being over powered.  The class in the origional post was already getting a Favored Terrain/feat/special ability every other level.  This is almost starting to look like the monk's list of special abilities now.  I wonder how the balance will hold?  Comments?One last thing and then I'm done.  What about adding tumble to the skill list since this ranger gets only light armor?  Should it remain cross class or shold he be able to bounce past opponents?Thats all for now.  I'll check back in later.</blockquote>

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