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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shard O'Glase" data-source="post: 711526" data-attributes="member: 1134">yeah I may be biased but I just hate save or dies.  there a part of fantasy, and a part of D&D since the begining, but they just wreck game balance.  If the CR18 v CR 25 situation was instead the CR25 creature is 35% likely to take full daamge form your 20d6 fireyball of doom.  People would say cool bring it on.  The non min/maxed fighter will likely hit 2-3 times for 1d8+18 each so 40-60 ish damage no save, no running out of shots seems fair.save or dies jsut wreck game balance especially when you factor in the wide range of save diversity.  Some mosnters with SR, and save ake it a 35% chance another mosnter of a simialr CR might only have a 5% chance of survival.  that's just way to large of a range.  Save or dies being all or nothing influence people to get DC boosting abilities more than ever.  Nothing sucks more than throwing 20 spells in a row to no effect because your facing things with good saves.  so what do you do, boost those DC, spell focus, spell power, and anything else you can come up with, now 1 in 3 spells get through on the big boys but only 1 in 20 fail against the weak sisters vs saves.  Nothing should swing form 35% chance to suceed to only a 5% chance to fail and be of a similar CR.remove save or dies, and success and failure mean a lot less less need for super boosters and if you fail you at least still did something. About the only solution I can think of is don't make save or die effects be save or die.  Poly other have it do some kind of virtual HP damage and if you "kill" the opponent the save or die being the final blow it takes effect and they are now a turtle or whatever.  Takes some of the fun away from spelcasters so they wont have any insta kills, but it would be way more balanced.  So poly other 1d6 a level max 15d6 fort save for 1/2, if poly effect kills oppoentn polymorphed into a whatsit.  poly damage heals as subdual damage.Sorry for the semi OT rant.</blockquote>

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