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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 783356" data-attributes="member: 6239">Finess fighters suck in a fight where anything goes.  Duelist is an attept to change that.  If you rarely have fights where anything goes, duelist doesn't work for your game.  Most of D&D is designed for unrestricted combat - i.e. the fighters can wear their plate mail and carry their great swords.  Change that, and you chage the dynamic of the game.Rules are rules, and the world is the world.  The rules are built on the idea of balance, which doesn't exsist in the real world.  If your opponent has a weapon and you don't, you are going to lose.  That isn't fun.  Neither is getting more "power" than your fellows with the same experience because of your focus.  That is why duelists have tumble.  An note that tumble increases your abilty to dodge, which is important in real rapier duels.Adventures don't generaly spend most of their time at the kings court.  They are out exploring ruins, finding items, fighting "bad guys", saving towns, traveling, or countering "evil" plots.  Armor, in most of those cases, is a good thing to always have on.  Thanks to spells like fly, armor check penalties don't come up much.  And even if they did come up all the time, more damage and more AC more than makes up for it.By that reasoning, all abilites should be feats.  But some abilities are too good to be feats, so they are put into a package with some possible draw-backs compared to alternatives.  You are not arguing against the duelist, you are arguing against all PrCls.Should a wizard, who never focuses on weapon training, be able to pick up a complicated fighting style?  Again, you are defeating the point of PrC in general.And without the duelist a finess fighter will never hold his own in any fight outside of the lace-wearing high society.Your concept of what an adventurer spends their time doing is different than the one the rules were focused on.  Because of that, duelist has too many advantages.  This does not mean it doesn't fit with the rest of the rule set pretty well, where the rules were intended to be used.  A small amount of magic defeats some or all of the problems you describe.  Glamored armor and winged boots.  Use a horse for long trips.Celebrim, most of your critisim of the class has been against PrCl in general or duelist fitting into the world.  Outside of those constraints, what bothers you about duelist?  Do you have the same problem with Weapon Master, Order of the Bow Initiate, and Master of Chains?</blockquote>

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