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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6426090" data-attributes="member: 2067">I mean, at this point, the target of your issue isn't sorcerers, it's the fact that charm magic isn't as powerful in 5e as it was in 3e. Which is kind of a different conversation. Be an alt-human and take Ritual Caster. Get some kitty. Yeah, I think that's more than viable as sorcerers stand now. Again, it's not clear that the wizard is outdoing anyone. More broadly, if the player of the wizard says "think of my wizard as the party rogue because she will be doing that function and nothing else," how should they compare to a sorcerer who says the same thing? How about an Arcane Trickster who says that? Or a bard who says that? Or, heck, a *rogue* who says that? Or a fighter!As it stands right now, all of those classes could conceivably say that and they'd all be roughly comparable in the role (though with some differences). That looks to me like good balance -- pick a niche you want to fill, and you can basically be as good as anyone else filling that niche. Table issue, not system issue. Either find a table that is willing to mod the system to get what you want, or find a table that can accept the kinds of characters you want to play. (My favorite version of this is getting one of my current players to step up and run a game for a while). You are the kender fan in the room full of kender-haters. It's not a fault of PHB design that it doesn't include kenders that kender-haters will accept.  In what version of 3e is a scythe a simple weapon? You're getting a little hung up on specifics. If that feeling of "non-wimpiness" is at issue, a dragon sorcerer dual-wielding daggers with a half-decent CON has HP, AC, and damage output that rivals any other mid-range melee machine (13+DEX AC, 7+CON HP, 2d4+DEX damage, +DEX to hit, plus Shield and True Strike and Shocking Grasp and False Life!).My intention isn't to be mean, it's just to point out that a lot of the issue might just be in your own head. A wizard can be strong, confident, flamboyant, and hardy! A sorcerer can be frail and weak! You might benefit from a more open perspective. You also may want to consider how this admitted bias on your part is coloring your perspective here. Everything you're saying about the wizard could be said by a wizard fan about the sorcerer -- that they have awful fluff text and that they feel like they "need" to be a sorcerer to be the archetype they are looking for ("I can't be a magic warrior if I have to constantly waste one of my spells on Mage Armor, and that won't even last past my first short rest! Sorcerers are all so much better at everything! My flexibility just means I'm awful at everything, and I have nothing I'm good at!"). So when you ask someone to explain to you why they did these things to the Sorcerer, the simple fact might be that they did these things to ensure that the sorcerer was balanced and focused on its niche. It doesn't use advanced weaponry because it's primarily a caster (same reason it gets 4 cantrips). It has a limited spell selection because it's not meant to be patient and versatile, but spontaneous and focused (which is why it has more cantrips and more "always on" options), though it has quite enough range to occupy many different niches. The reason it doesn't seem that way at first glance to you might be because you have inflated expectations of what a sorcerer must be. Not being able to wield spears isn't code for "they are weak and frail!", it's code for "Shocking grasp is better than spears, and Sorcerers are cool because they cast spells, so we should encourage them to use their cantrips instead of weapon attacks." For someone who relies a little less on spells, look at the Arcane Trickster rogue, or the Bard, who are quite comparable for all the niches you're looking to fill.</blockquote>

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