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<blockquote data-quote="MoonSong" data-source="post: 6430136" data-attributes="member: 6689464"><p>It is part of the issue, my argument is charm magic should be better for a sorcerer than for a wizard. In 5e a 1st lv wizard has twice the options a 1st lv sorcerer has (and 3 times overall) and can cast 50% more spells. why should my first level charm spell have the exact same effect than the wizard out there which had a way smaller opportunity cost? </p><p></p><p></p><p>Why should I be a wizard to get a kitty familiar? I had never needed to be a wizard to get one. This also limits the options in races I can play. Gnomes, half-eves, elves,... this is a very artificial limit. </p><p></p><p></p><p>How about "the party not regret it" bit?, sorcerers are less viable than ever as anything but blasters. And even as blaster, my first level sorcerer did nothing but fail her two shots at the big mon and cower behind the others. </p><p></p><p></p><p>A wizard who can basically rewrite herself everyday? the only time I actually tried to play a wizard was once when I wanted to reproduce Saint tail, it seemed appropriate at the time, but I was met with skepticism by fellow players, a sorcerer has more creed in that sense, a wizard always has the temptation to do something else, and that is why he shouldn't be as good as a sorcerer or a bard who should be able to compare to a rogue if properly focused. (That campaign didn't got off the ground so my record of zero wizards is still intact) </p><p></p><p></p><p>Again the wizard has more than enough room to fill a niche and still do more than just the niche. I have to concede this doesn't really cover the niche that well. Spells were very limited so wizards couldn't make others irrelevant as shown in the other thread about wizards. But if the wizard with twice the spells cannot properly fill the niche, how can a sorcerer fill it with the exact same spells, only knowing half the spells and casting only two-thirds of the ones wizards can without counting ritual casting? </p><p></p><p></p><p>If I had a stable table like that I wouldn't need to care about RAW. And if I had a group willing to mod the game to make room for me, I wouldn't need or care about 5e. I still think I would have an easier time convincing a DM to allow the sorcerer from Baldur's Gate in 2e. </p><p></p><p></p><p>All I want is the option for all of my sorcerers -ALL not just humans-to be good with spears and contribute with them to the party, they are an iconic weapon for sorcs, I don't want to be beholden to just two very specific builds in order to contribute. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except for the one case up there, I have never been satisfied with the wizard, it cannot tell the stories I want to tell with my characters. This hasn't changed one bit since they were called mages, the class is just that limited for me. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm sorry, but I never heard a wizard player complain during 3e, and it is very difficult for me to empathize with that hypothetical reversal, wizards always end up over-supported, and they being the default caster has always been a cause for sorcerers to be more limited than necessary. Yet I think they limited wizards more than was necessary. </p><p></p><p></p><p>A spear isn't advanced weaponry, it is called a simple weapon because any peasant can use it -and this is something I feel bad about, they took away the sorcerer's peasant status, a key part of the sorcerer identity-. Only for a wizard a spear is advanced. As a sorcerer player I've grown to expect being able to use them, it is as if they took away monk weapons -they are supposed to use their fists!-. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Arcane trickster has nothing to do here, it gets spells too late to count. But yes, Bards are awesome, and will probably have to have a mandatory multiclassing for all of my sorcerers from now on. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Gladiator only gives you the weapon, not the proficiency. And it still is a limit on the kind of characters I can have. And I want spears and simple weapons, suggesting a way to get an exotic weapon implies I'm asking for something outrageous and unreasonable.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="MoonSong, post: 6430136, member: 6689464"] It is part of the issue, my argument is charm magic should be better for a sorcerer than for a wizard. In 5e a 1st lv wizard has twice the options a 1st lv sorcerer has (and 3 times overall) and can cast 50% more spells. why should my first level charm spell have the exact same effect than the wizard out there which had a way smaller opportunity cost? Why should I be a wizard to get a kitty familiar? I had never needed to be a wizard to get one. This also limits the options in races I can play. Gnomes, half-eves, elves,... this is a very artificial limit. How about "the party not regret it" bit?, sorcerers are less viable than ever as anything but blasters. And even as blaster, my first level sorcerer did nothing but fail her two shots at the big mon and cower behind the others. A wizard who can basically rewrite herself everyday? the only time I actually tried to play a wizard was once when I wanted to reproduce Saint tail, it seemed appropriate at the time, but I was met with skepticism by fellow players, a sorcerer has more creed in that sense, a wizard always has the temptation to do something else, and that is why he shouldn't be as good as a sorcerer or a bard who should be able to compare to a rogue if properly focused. (That campaign didn't got off the ground so my record of zero wizards is still intact) Again the wizard has more than enough room to fill a niche and still do more than just the niche. I have to concede this doesn't really cover the niche that well. Spells were very limited so wizards couldn't make others irrelevant as shown in the other thread about wizards. But if the wizard with twice the spells cannot properly fill the niche, how can a sorcerer fill it with the exact same spells, only knowing half the spells and casting only two-thirds of the ones wizards can without counting ritual casting? If I had a stable table like that I wouldn't need to care about RAW. And if I had a group willing to mod the game to make room for me, I wouldn't need or care about 5e. I still think I would have an easier time convincing a DM to allow the sorcerer from Baldur's Gate in 2e. All I want is the option for all of my sorcerers -ALL not just humans-to be good with spears and contribute with them to the party, they are an iconic weapon for sorcs, I don't want to be beholden to just two very specific builds in order to contribute. Except for the one case up there, I have never been satisfied with the wizard, it cannot tell the stories I want to tell with my characters. This hasn't changed one bit since they were called mages, the class is just that limited for me. I'm sorry, but I never heard a wizard player complain during 3e, and it is very difficult for me to empathize with that hypothetical reversal, wizards always end up over-supported, and they being the default caster has always been a cause for sorcerers to be more limited than necessary. Yet I think they limited wizards more than was necessary. A spear isn't advanced weaponry, it is called a simple weapon because any peasant can use it -and this is something I feel bad about, they took away the sorcerer's peasant status, a key part of the sorcerer identity-. Only for a wizard a spear is advanced. As a sorcerer player I've grown to expect being able to use them, it is as if they took away monk weapons -they are supposed to use their fists!-. Arcane trickster has nothing to do here, it gets spells too late to count. But yes, Bards are awesome, and will probably have to have a mandatory multiclassing for all of my sorcerers from now on. Gladiator only gives you the weapon, not the proficiency. And it still is a limit on the kind of characters I can have. And I want spears and simple weapons, suggesting a way to get an exotic weapon implies I'm asking for something outrageous and unreasonable. [/QUOTE]
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