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Message: <blockquote data-quote="sunshadow21" data-source="post: 6844262" data-attributes="member: 6667193">You are right about DMs needing to be able to run their NPCs properly; the main contention in this thread is more about the degree DM's should be expected to cover learning gaps in the PC department. When it comes to NPCs, I agree with you 100%, although as I am just starting out, I do tend to have to ask for a bit more patience simply because sometimes the only way to learn how to run a lot of complex NPCs is to actually do it, and accept the inevitable failures as part of the learning process. When it comes to the PCs, I expect the players to accept similar responsibility for what is supposed to be their character. My point of view is that for the most part, whoever brings that character to the table, whether it be a NPC being run by a DM or a PC being run by a player, needs to be the one primarily running that character after a reasonable adjustment and learning period. There will be some exceptions and variances for followers, cohorts, hirelings, and the like which often can reasonably controlled by either DM or player based on the situation, but overall, that basic principle applies. I don't like bringing NPC's to the fight if I am not comfortable running them for this reason, and if I do, I will ask for a bit of slack for that combat precisely because I am aware that things are going to be slower on my end; I also expect that if I do that too much consistently I am going to have some annoyed players. Similarly, I am willing to give players a bit of slack occasionally as they learn, they do eventually need to be able to run their character compentently with minimal help from others. Someone wanting to play a caster is going to either have to memorize the spells or learn how to take good notes in order to not bog down combat, and if neither of those is possible, they need to switch a simpler class for a while. The comment about different tiered players earlier may have been a bit more blunt than necessary, but it's not far off the mark. Many players simply cannot effectively run mid or high level casters, and only just barely get by at the low levels. Good players learn and grow and get better at it, but some players simply don't, and the group has to decide whether it's worth it to carry them and basically run their character for them or get them to play something else. There isn't one set place where the difficulty becomes too much, but there is definitely that line that certain players cannot cross without putting the rest of the group in a difficult posiont of trying to figure out how to respond. To the OP, try working with the player in other ways first, but at the end of the day, don't be afraid to tell him that he needs to play something else if the problem persists. Letting the problem drag on and fester will simply cause more problems.</blockquote>

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