plotting the growth of settlements for PC rulers

[rustypaladin]

Hey, just a thought here. I am looking for some resources/ideas as far as how to determine income/population growth for a PC who become the king or ruler of a region whether it's a newly established settlement or a pre-existing realm. I know there IS some info out there but haven't come across anything that doesn't involve A LOT of work. I don't really need extreme micromanaging info just some basic info that perhaps could get a little more detailed IF the PCs so desired.

 

[unan oranis]

My players are doing stuff like this, a few things you should watch out for when kingdom building:

- clever players will be able to make a lot of gold... a LOT. However you handle magic item shopping, think ahead and prepare some sort of embargo (the genie network won't sell items higher than X level, magic items are very rare past X level, some army dudes bought everything...) This way the players can have the funds for building dams and bridges, but still be challenged by combats and excited about finding ancient relics.

- characters will often be insulated from standard battle encounters by virtue of having loads of servants. Convert these bodyguards into background battlefield conditions (servants fighting orcs while the heroes battle the captains in the middle, or the servants hand out automatic CA and +2 assists every round etc). At worst, let them field minions (perhaps adopt this concept if your not playing 4e).

- the 3e heroes of battle book has a pretty great way of designing army battles. This flow chart style of decision making is ideal for all kinds of large scale scenarios - politics, trade, diplomacy etc. Encounters can be arranged to happen in a believable manner, and you can create exciting narratives. IMO, beats the snot out of any dice/table heavy simulation system. You could use a larger, longer time scale flow chart for the growth of the pc's settlement.

- if you play 4e, bust out the skill challenges in conjunction with or as a substitute for the above. Heck if you play an older version cannibalize the skill challenge system anyway!

- Find a resource of "encounters" that can end up with a brawl in the throne room, or directly challenge the rulers in some way. I find wikipedia articles about colonies and frontier towns to be a good source of material.

 

[S'mon]

Growth rate per year for a frontier settlement could be up to c 15% with an influx of settlers, from an initial base of say a few hundred. It will tail off as land reaches carrying capacity, for the middle ages that means somewhere between 50-200 per square mile of farmland, or typically 10-100 per square mile overall. Medieval France, mostly fertile farmland, had around 118 per square mile, while the British Isles with much rough terrain and moorland were around 30 per square mile.

Personally I would avoid running any kind of cash-based economic system or you'll soon find PCs with vast piles of free gp! Better to think in terms of feudal obligations - crop tithes to feed the lord's men, labour to till the lord's fields and dig his ditches, 40 days/year of military service for able-bodied yeomen, and such. Thus a PC Baron could have a big castle, droves of servants (fed well and clothed, but rarely if ever paid), and a warband of loyal warriors, but little cash-in-hand.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Fyi

Hey, Paizo's next Adventure Path, Kingmaker, deals with exactly this and will have new rules included. I think it comes out in about a month, if that's any help!

Ken

 

[Gilwen]

Hey, just a thought here. I am looking for some resources/ideas as far as how to determine income/population growth for a PC who become the king or ruler of a region whether it's a newly established settlement or a pre-existing realm. I know there IS some info out there but haven't come across anything that doesn't involve A LOT of work. I don't really need extreme micromanaging info just some basic info that perhaps could get a little more detailed IF the PCs so desired.

run out and and look at Expedious Retreat Press's Magical Society line.
http://enworld.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=225_4041

Has alot of info so you can get as detailed as you want.

gil

 

[Treebore]

It sounds to me like the best thing for you to do is just go with what seems fair and logical.

Like start with a percentile roll to see if population grows or shrinks. Allow the player to earn modifiers to this roll based on efforts they put into it. Such as active recruitment drives, cash/land/housing incentives, etc...

I would still not allow them to increase the population more than 200% in a given year (meaning no more than double it). Also, the previous posters are correct, investing money into such lands is a very wise thing to do, because with time and mother nature being on your side, PC land owners can make a lot of gold, even with 40% of it being paid to their lord as taxes.

The cool thing is, powerful PC's can negotiate as a reward from their lord "X" number of years being at a lower tax rate, even zero if the service is worth it to the given lord.

I wouldn't roll for such things. I usually "know" enough about the lord, their issues, their costs, etc... to know whether or not I would offer the PC's such a reward if I actually were the lord. Then I enter into real life like negotiations with the PC's based upon these things I "know" about the lord in question. No rolling, just me and the players making decisions based on what we know about the characters involved.

When the occasional thing comes up that we do not know enough about, I revert to a percentile roll, and giving a 50/50 chance is usually good enough, but again, I follow my instincts about such things, and modify the result needed up and down as I think fits best.

As an example, the "Magical Medievel Society: Western Europe", by Expeditious Retreat Press, recommended by a poster up above, does everything based upon the D&D assumptions of value. So, as a result, one of my players has a PC who has 100 square miles of very profitable land for his Barony. By the same token, based on the wealth of his lands, I have a much better sense of how disgustingly rich the other Barons, Counts, Dukes, common land owners, and the Empress are as well.

So now the whole economy makes much better sense to me since I understand the basic scale of it so much better.

If you ever decide to get into more economic details, let me know, because there are several other good PDF's and such out there.


Also take a look at the following:

Medieval Demographics Made Easy


Medieval Kingdom Generator

http://citygen.crystalballsoft.com/

and


Medieval Sourcebook: Medieval Price List

These can all help you figure things out and be more comfortable with your decision making.

 

[Gilwen]

nice links thanks treebore!
gil

 

[Cyronax]

What about the D&D Cyclopedia? Its was a great BECMI/Classic D&D work which consolidated that systems rather awesome rules for 'name level' (9th level +) characters' personal fiefdoms. D&D Cyclopedia also had great mass battle rules.

I recently have been playing with concepts from that book and how they can be applied to 4e. Surprisingly, that old book (1991) is easily portable in to 4e -- Anyway here's a blog post I found about converting BECMI mass battle rules to 4e: Greywulf's Lair - War Machine, revised: Mass Combat for 4e

This blog -- Greywulf's Lair -- is full of articles like this including one about strongholds and henchmen: Greywulf's Lair - Strongholds and Henchmen for 4e

I read the whole blog during the big blizzard and it really helped spur my creativity for my current campaign.

I also suggest checking out AD&D Birthright.

C.I.D.

 

[Treebore]

Yeah, the RC is always a good book to look to for such ideas.

 

[S'mon]

Inspired by Greywulf's post linked above, here's my own effort at a BFR calculation system for the BECMI War Machine Rules for 4e. I think the Quick system is probably more appropriate for most 4e campaigns, the Extended system is for those who like more number-crunching.

Quick BFR System
1. Decide the force's troop class, below.

Basic Force Rating Troop Class Typical Troop Level
10-20 Untrained - untrained peasants - Kobolds Minion 1
21-35 Poor - emergency levy, little training - Goblins Minion 2-3
36-55 Below Average - Orcs Minion 4-5
56-70 Fair - most trained militia - Hobgoblins Minion 6-7
71-80 Average - typical feudal army, Barbarians Minion 8-9 or Standard 1
81-100 Good - professional army, Gnolls, Elves Minion 10-11 or Standard 2-3
101-125 Excellent - crack troops, Ogres, Dwarves Minion 12-14 or Standard 4-6
126-150 Elite - personal guards, Giants Minion 15-17 or Standard 7-9

BFR Beyond Elite Typical Troop Level
151-175 Minion 18-20 Standard 10-12
176-200 Minion 21-23 Standard 13-15
201-225 Minion 24-26 Standard 16-18
226-250 Minion 27-29 Standard 19-21
251-275 Minion 30-32 Standard 22-24
276-300 Minion 33-35 Standard 25-27
301-325 Minion 36-38 Standard 28-30
+25 +3

With NPC Leader
2. Choose BFR or set at 1 below minimum plus a randomiser die:
"Untrained" = 10+1d10
"Poor" = 20+1d12
"Below Average" = 35+1d20
"Fair" = 55+1d12
"Average" = 70+1d10
"Good" = 80+1d20
"Excellent" = 100+1d20
"Elite" = 125+1d20
etc

With PC Leader:
2. Set BFR at 1 below minimum for that TC
3. Add Leader modifier:

Leadership
Leader’s level + Leader's Class Modifier:

Class Modifier - based on attitude of troops commanded:
+10 Very Favoured - Warlord
+5 Favoured - Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian
+0 Neutral - Cleric, Bard, Ranger, Warden, other Leader or Defender
-5 Disfavoured - Rogue, Wizard, Druid, Shaman, Invoker, Assassin, Avenger, other Controller or Striker

The class modifier assumes a typical campaign setting where the troops trust martial prowess more than the arcane arts, feel distant from divine power, and distrust Rogues. It may be adjusted according to the culture of the setting, eg in a Magocracy Wizards may have +5 to Leadership, in a Theocracy Clerics may have +5. If a Thieves' Guild fielded an army then Rogues might have +5.
____________________________

Extended BFR Calculation

Leadership
Leader’s level
Leader's Class Modifier:
+10 Warlord
+5 Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian
+0 Cleric, Bard, Ranger, Warden, other Leader or Defender
-5 Rogue, Wizard, Druid, Shaman, Invoker, Assassin, Avenger, other Controller or Striker

+ 2 per 1% of troops that is Paragon Tier as a Standard monster)
+4 per 1% of troops that is Epic Tier as a Standard monster

Experience - Calculate as Minion (Standards Level +8, Elites Level +12)
[Average Officer Level (1 per 40 troops)] + [Average Troop level x 5] + 1 per Victory -1 per Rout in past 10 years

Training
+40 Elite: 20+ weeks/year, unit Double Cost
+30 Crack: 20+ weeks/year, 1.5 Cost
+20 Regular: 20+ weeks/year, Standard Cost
+10 Trained: 10 weeks.
+5 Levy: 5 weeks
+0 Untrained: 0 weeks

Role
+5 if 20% troops are Controller role
+5 if 20% troops are Leader role
+5 if 20% troops are Soldier role
+5 if 50% of troops are Soldier role

Total
Add those together to get the Basic Force Rating and overall Troop Class.