Point-buy ECL Alternative?

[DarkSong]

While I was initially a big fan of the whole ECL concept as a way to allow ununsual races into play without overshadowing the standard races, I've noticed it definitely has its ups and downs...

For instance, it can really hurt a primarily spell-casting class to take even an ECL +1 race, since that lost level of caster really hurts. Even a non spell-caster usually has to look at the race in terms of what the racial abilities "make up for"; that is, a fighter might be willing to take an ECL +1 race so long as it gave +2 strength (making up for the lost BAB) and maybe +2 con (to help out with the lost hit die), amongst whatever else it offered.

This is further compounded by the difficulty in assigning an appropriate ECL to a race, where some ECL +1 races really aren't much better than standard races (arguably some are not at all), and some are noticecably so...ECL is just a pretty gross (as opposed to fine) means of control.

Blah, blah, blah, hopefully you all get the point. The whole reason for this post is to suggest an alternate means of balancing more powerful races.

To wit, if you use point buy for character creation, how about assigning a certain point cost to powerful races?

For example (rough example only, please don't crucify me based on these numbers), maybe a Tielfing would be worth 3 points, an Aasimar worth 4, and a Drow, say, 8. This would allow +ECL spellcasters to stay on par, while having some mechanism to keep them in balance.

Of course, you'd have to consider the stat bonuses the races get, to make sure that their cost is at least worth that.

This would also allow more fine-tuning of cost associated with powerful races, since you wouldn't have to bump them a whole +1 ECL at a time.

This would probably breakdown as you got into more powerful races and templates, but I think it just might be able to work on current +1 or +2 ECL races.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think this is a good idea. Living Arcanis does something similar with their Val race and bloodline powers. If you want to play a Val, you have to buy your bloodline powers with ability points.

I'm not sure of exactly the number of points per ECL though. Six or eight would probably be a good starting point for a +1 ECL race (since Aasmars and Tieflings both get +2 to two different stats which will usually amount to at least eight points under a point buy system since they'll typically be used to bump stats up from 14, 15, 16, 17, or 18). Six might be better than 8 since you usually come out ahead in points with ability adjustments from standard PC races.

I also think it's worth considering allowing this the other way. I think I'd allow a 36 point character into a 28 point game at +1 ECL. That would be good to represent a young character with lots of natural talent but very little experience. . . .

 

[DarkSong]

Bah, silly power outage! Where was I...?

Oh, yes, the topic.

Maybe I should re-post this in House Rules...it would last longer, and maybe get a little more response...as well as being closer to the stated forum topic...maybe later.

Elder-Basilisk: To start with your last point, that's an intersting idea to allow more points in exchange for a higher ECL, but that's really opposite of the direction that I'm trying to go...If some player wanted to try that, though, I might just consider it.

I think the real difficulty comes in when you try to assign specific point values...Ideally, the point values should be low enough to get people to consider them along with the other races, but not so low that taking that race is a no-brainer. Maybe ideally the cost shuold be just a smidge high, so that only people who really want the race will take it...hrm.

Anyway, on to the actual point cost analysis...

Every race should be compared to the core races...they have no ECL adjustment, and in this scheme they would have a point cost of zero.

Let's start with an example: Elf (PHB) vs. Aasimar (as presented in the FRCS).

First, the stats: elves get +2 dex/-2 con, while Aasimar get +2 wis/+2 cha.

In point buy, it seems reasonable to assume that a player will try to maximize bonuses, while minimizing penalties...so that means that a +2 stat modifier should correspond to 6 points (figuring that the player will put a high, 16+, stat in the spot), while a -2 stat modifier should correpsond to 2 points (figuring the player will put that in a low, 14-, spot). That means a +2/-2 elf is effectively up 4 points on stats alone, while a +2/+2 aasimar is up 12 points.

Now lets compare the other abilities:

Elf: +2 to listen, search, and spot, automatic search for secret doors.
Aasimar: +2 to listen and spot
Edge goes to the elf.

Elf: Immune to sleep, +2 to saves vs. enchantments
Aasimar: Acid, cold, electricity resistance 5
Hmmm...I'd call that a push, since either can be nice, depending on the situation...others may disagree.

Elf: Low-light Vision
Aasimar: Darkvision
I'd call that a push, again due to the "circumstances" bit, but most people I know prefer darkvision, so slight edge to the aasimar.

Elf: Automatic proficiencies (sword and bows)
Aasimar: Light, once/day
Okay, so these aren't really similar, but those are the last of the special abilities....I'd call that a push, since the proficiency can be really useful at low levels, though not to fighter-types. And light 1/day loses its punch at higher levels.

So what do we come up with? Well, the Aasimar is 8 points ahead of the elf on stats alone, and maybe a bit behind on abilities.
Looking at things further, an Aasimar's bonus stats are wisdom and charisma, which are amongst the "lesser" stats in the DMG (strength and dexterity are the "greater" stats).

Hmm....so, let's reduce the Aasimar to costing 6 points, for its lack of abilities, and then to 4 points for having "lesser" stat bonuses.

At that point, with 32 point buy, an Elven wizard's score assortment might look like:

Str: 8
Dex: 14 (+2 = 16)
Con: 12 (-2 = 10)
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

While an Aasimar Paladin might look like (with 28 points after "buying" the aasimar race):

Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 14 (+2 = 16)
Cha: 14 (+2 = 16)

It seems to me that these point costs will carry different weight depending on the number of points used...the more points one gets to play with, the more attractive increased point cost races seem to be...even if that's true, it's not necessarily a problem, just an observation.

Discuss amongst yourselves.
Later.

 

[Morrus]

Two good sources for inspiration on this subject:

Asgard #1 (the "Mixed Blood" article) deals with building races with points. It only deals with blending elemtns of the core races plus, if I remember correctly, a couple of planar races, but it's a good starting point. The magazine is free, so you lose nothing by downoading it: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/news...e=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=8

Four Color to Fantasy - unfortunately, this one costs money, but it essentially treats D20 superheroes as ECL races purchased with points. There are a lot of "standard" abilities in there as well as more exotic superpowers, and it would be fairly easy to fill the gaps with some more D&D-esque racial abilities. Some people already use this book as a race and/or class construction engine. This one isn't free, though - it costs $6.95 from RPGNow: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=235&

 

[Chun-tzu]

I really like this idea, and it would potentially be a better system for ECL +1 and +2 races (I don't know about higher) than the ECL system.

When it comes down to calculating estimated point values of various races, that's a bit more complicated. I think you're off to a good start, DarkSong, but I'd have to give it more consideration before commenting.

One potential idea, though, is to have 2+ different point buy tables. Yes, it's less elegant, but I think it might be more balanced in the long run. The idea is that high attributes would be cheaper for ECL 0 races. So it might work out to something like ECL 0 races getting 32 points, ECL +1 races getting 28 points, and ECL +2 races getting 25 points. Or maybe those differences should be higher, I don't know. Just a thought.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It seems to me that these point costs will carry different weight depending on the number of points used...the more points one gets to play with, the more attractive increased point cost races seem to be...even if that's true, it's not necessarily a problem, just an observation.

Discuss amongst yourselves.
Later.

I'm not sure that isn't a problem. At point buys higher than 36, stat points really cease being a scarce commodity (except for concepts which require high scores in almost every stat like monk, paladin, and some fighter/wizards). I would expect that a 42 point buy, for instance would allow characters to have an 18 in the stat that gives them power (spellcasting attributes, strength for meleers, dex for archer/rogues, etc), 14 or 16s in other relevant stats (usually con and dex or str), and still have enough points left over for higher than average scores in the stats they don't care about.

At that point, the choice between playing an ECL race (like Aasmar or Tiefling) and playing a non-ECL race is the choice between a 20 in one primary stat and an 18 or a 20 in your secondary stat plus the other nifty ECL bonusses or a 20 in your primary stat, a 16 or 18 in your secondary, and above average scores in the rest of them.

Or, you could afford to have decent base stats and a really powerful ECL race like a half dragon (they'd be what, 16 or 20 points? You could still start your fighter with a 26 strength, fire immunity, natural armor, and a breath weapon. . . .) Either way, the choice doesn't seem like it'd be that hard for powergamers.

Then again, point buys that high break the system anyway, so maybe that really isn't such a problem.

 

[DarkSong]

Morrus:
Thanks for the tips on material that's already tread this ground (or at least something similar...). I'll definitely check out the Asgard stuff.

Chun-tzu:
Like you say, having multiple point tables would be less "elegant", and is really something I'd rather avoid...making more races available seems complication enough...adding different cost scales would really muddy the waters.

Elder-Basilisk:
You're totally right that the system breaks down a little at higher point values, but I think this just also a part of the point system.
I really don't think it'll be a problem, since at high point values, you're looking at pretty heroic characters, and shouldn't that be where you'd expect to see an Aasimar or half-dragon tagging along?

One conceptual problem I see is that, if you make some effort to "correct" for the huge stat bonuses some ECL races get, then you've effectively adjusted their stats to be close to equivalent to ECL+0 races, while in theory these races should have higher stats...it's almost like you're putting heroic stat humans with low-end half-dragons (or whatever). Does that make sense? And if so, is it even a problem? Or just something that the player will have to consider when constructing the character?

Thanks for all the feedback.
Later.

 

[Zigmutt]

As stated by Chun-Tzu (whop seems to be all over these boards lately) the Pt- Buy would work only for ECL 1 and 2- those simple races that do not get scaling bonuses.

Races like Fiends and such that get scaling benefits have to be docked later- in order to balance them out with the standard races.

Like a minotaur- they get the Str and con bonus at the beginning- and nothing afterwards- no matter what class level you are. So a -4 on your Pt Buy would balance him out.

But a half fiend template gets a all that cool stuff at the beginning (resistance, smite, wings) and then you get a racial ability every three levels or so. If you get these bonuses in addition to your standard class bonuses- then the initial pt buy does not compensate. I would allow these super/ extra abilities if you are willing to give up something- like your skill pts at that level, or the stat boost or what not- but a sorc (who only really needs 2 good scores) and takes this template and have a dump stat will be so powerful because of the scaling abilities.

 

[Chun-tzu]

As stated by Chun-Tzu (whop seems to be all over these boards lately)

Actually, I only post to the general forum, but Henry and Dinkeldog keep moving my posts to other forums!





Disclaimer: The above is, of course, an exaggeration. I only post to the Meta board.

 

[Chun-tzu]

What if you applied the human principle, in reverse?

Humans, being the standard by which all races are compared, are also the most vanilla. So they boosted them by granting an extra feat and extra skill points.

How about balancing ECL races by a combination of lower point buy and feat/skill penalties? Something like:

ECL 0 - 32 point buy
ECL 1 - 28 point buy, -1 feat
ECL 2 - 25 point buy, -1 feat, -1 skill point/level

There could also be some balancing "in-between" ECLs, like a straight 28-point buy would be between ECL 0 and ECL 1.