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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Daedrova" data-source="post: 964427" data-attributes="member: 11835">Well, most of my players feel as though their character is not heroic or "good" enough to even be an adventurer without good stats.  I have to admit, most did start out in 2e, and I can definitely see why it created that sort of mindset.And I do agree that heroism is defined by actions, not by stats, but I also don't see a problem with giving the players some extra so that they are more likely to survive encounters.  I also don't much like complete dependency on magic items.  Don't get me wrong, I like magic items, and I see why they are needed and how they fit (I had to argue for them against a couple of players who thought they should be able to operate independently of them).  But giving some extra points when using point buy allows characters to operate without having to be completely decked out with the items (yes, I think it is cheesy for a character to have, or need to have a +6 item for every stat).  Also, characters I and my friends have created rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest have always had much better scores that what is possible with a 25 point buy system. I do like the fact that lower points forces choices, but most players I know are stuck with a choice that they do not want to make.  For these reasons, I have not run a game where characters are created using less than 32 points.  I know, it can be excessive, but again, I do not always run games in "high" magic worlds where every magic item a character wants he can just buy.  Plus, I really have found no problem with tailoring the campaigns to the characters... It may also help that many of the opponents that the PCs will face are NPCs that I have drawn up.  And, again, I like the fact that they have a slightly (usually very slightly) increased chance of achieving victory in a tough encounter.  If I want them to fail, I will create a higher challenge, something that they will/should know is probably too much of a challenge, and provide them with other choices (this is where if their heads get to big, they will choose poorly, only to be quickly reminded that they are indeed still not superman/still mortal)  I really don’t like the prospect of the entire party dying when I was expecting a close or hard earned victory.  I know that not all things can be accounted for, and those things can still happen, but I don't mind PCs having the edge.  Aside from that, I think we all know that the CR system isn’t an exact science…Aside from that, I still see the players struggling over choices when making their characters, but they are more happy with those that they must make, rather than "man, if I take the starting Str and Con my fighter needs to survive, he wont have the points needed to make him even a semi dexterous or intelligent fighter, and his Wisdom/will save will, as always, suck, and of course he is going to be the ugliest most abrasive adventurer ever..."  My players don't like having to choose in that manner, and I don't like forcing it on them.It also seems that using lower points greatly favors the classes that really only need the one high ability score.  A Paladin with 25 points:  Str 15, Dex 10, con12, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14...  They are a melee class, demanding of Str and Con, but in order to even compare with other melee classes, their Cha based bonuses and casting from Wis, need to be there, meaning they can be, at BEST, just above average with each.  That character really doesn’t seem to be worth while.Compare to a Wizard: Str 8 (no problem), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 8,  His very high ability score (not 18) is the only one he is too concerned with, and he has no need of str or cha (unless he desires them for RP reasons-maybe a higher Cha? which is no argument for using lower points) and he can still take the above average Dex and/or Con for and edge in HP or init and AC.This character is a bit weak for my tastes, and for most of my players, (that may just be due to my gaming environment) but I wouldn’t have a problem playing this character.  I would have a problem playing the Paladin above.  I think the Paladin would have a hard time being the Paladin above.  32 point Paladin: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16.  Does this really make him “superman?”  So he doesn’t have to be stupid or clumsy to have the above average stats needed to be a survivable character.I don't know who I am trying to convince, since this is really just a matter of taste.  I guess I just justified my response so that I don't get allot of replies claiming that I am a I have an inferior view of RP or of the concept of the system <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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