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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 514282" data-attributes="member: 3146">So you admit that 2 18s and a 13 and 3 8s would be a more &quot;min-maxed&quot; or &quot;power-gamed&quot; character. If that's the case, why do you insist on maintaining that a pair of 18s are no more advantageous than four 13s (or 2 14s and 2 12s)? The weighted point buy system in the DMG recognizes that this is the case and charges more for the 18s than for the other stats. The system you are so strenuously advocating pretends that there is no difference between bumping a 17 to an 18 and bumping a 10 to an 11.You're really stretching to make this point. A 10 str is really untennable for a melee fighter. A 14 str is acceptable. An 18 is excellent. If this is the case, the &quot;one dimensional melee monkey&quot; is with his two 18s and a 13 is nearly as capable in ranged combat as your well balanced fighter with his decent str, dex, and con. In fact, after first level, the &quot;melee monkey&quot; should be able to afford a mighty bow and at that point, with his 13 dex and 18 str, he'll be a superior ranged combatant to the balanced 14 str, 14 dex character. (Who wouldn't trade +1 to hit for +2 to damage in most cases).And, his weaknesses are probably not any easier to take advantage of. Remember, he's in a party. If ranged combat isn't the party's forte, they'll usually have a way to avoid it (obscuring mist, etc).Somehow I doubt this. D&amp;D is still a game for specialists even if it's not in a cliche'ed dungeon crawl. Since all of the characters we're talking about are fighters, will the &quot;generalist&quot; fighter really be significantly better than the &quot;melee goon&quot; outside of combat? If it comes to social interaction, he's got the same pathetic skill list. +1 diplomacy (from charisma) won't put the &quot;generalist&quot; on a par with a rogue, bard, cleric, or paladin with maxed out diplomacy. If the character really wants to be a generalist, he'll need to multiclass. And, in that case, he'll probably find some other way to spend his stats. If he's a fighter/rogue, 13 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 cha (using weapon finesse to hit and power attack/sneak attack for damage) may be a dramatically better build than 14 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 10 wis, 9 cha.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 514282, member: 3146"] [B][/b] So you admit that 2 18s and a 13 and 3 8s would be a more "min-maxed" or "power-gamed" character. If that's the case, why do you insist on maintaining that a pair of 18s are no more advantageous than four 13s (or 2 14s and 2 12s)? The weighted point buy system in the DMG recognizes that this is the case and charges more for the 18s than for the other stats. The system you are so strenuously advocating pretends that there is no difference between bumping a 17 to an 18 and bumping a 10 to an 11. [b][/b] You're really stretching to make this point. A 10 str is really untennable for a melee fighter. A 14 str is acceptable. An 18 is excellent. If this is the case, the "one dimensional melee monkey" is with his two 18s and a 13 is nearly as capable in ranged combat as your well balanced fighter with his decent str, dex, and con. In fact, after first level, the "melee monkey" should be able to afford a mighty bow and at that point, with his 13 dex and 18 str, he'll be a superior ranged combatant to the balanced 14 str, 14 dex character. (Who wouldn't trade +1 to hit for +2 to damage in most cases). And, his weaknesses are probably not any easier to take advantage of. Remember, he's in a party. If ranged combat isn't the party's forte, they'll usually have a way to avoid it (obscuring mist, etc). Somehow I doubt this. D&D is still a game for specialists even if it's not in a cliche'ed dungeon crawl. Since all of the characters we're talking about are fighters, will the "generalist" fighter really be significantly better than the "melee goon" outside of combat? If it comes to social interaction, he's got the same pathetic skill list. +1 diplomacy (from charisma) won't put the "generalist" on a par with a rogue, bard, cleric, or paladin with maxed out diplomacy. If the character really wants to be a generalist, he'll need to multiclass. And, in that case, he'll probably find some other way to spend his stats. If he's a fighter/rogue, 13 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 8 cha (using weapon finesse to hit and power attack/sneak attack for damage) may be a dramatically better build than 14 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 10 wis, 9 cha. [/QUOTE]

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